Ketan Gajjar: Yeah, we are live. So hello everyone and welcome to the recruitment curry show. We’re going to be talking about the five factors to help you sell in a downturn. And then today which is why, we have our wonderful guest, Lee Warren. So Lee is the award winning author of the busy person’s guide to great presenting is being a sales director at news international, the publishers of the times newspaper, and he’s also been a professional magician and a mind reader.
So over to you lean, obviously I’m sure, you’ll be able to talk more about yourself to, to the audience. Hi
Lee Warren: Ketan, thanks very much for inviting me. I know we’ve met once once before. Yeah, it’s quite a nice introduction to have, isn’t it? And what’s been interesting in my work is, although my work is around sales, it’s really more around Engaging and persuasive communication.
And that comes from a background of those two things coming together. So one background is in sales, particularly corporate B2B sales. And then the other is being a performer. So being someone who has to walk into rooms and connect with people very quickly to get people feeling warm and empathetic and smiling very fast.
And so I brought those two, two skills together. And these days I now do a lot of keynote speaking and working with people in workshops, helping them to connect better and be more. more compelling and confident in their communications.
Ketan Gajjar: Fantastic. And then, so just how we connected was, especially on your show with elite where you presented about sales and especially the ham and pie approach, which let’s leave it to the last, because that’s something, that’s going to be with, tremendous help to people, if they really implement that, especially in the times now.
And we all know that, there are potentially, challenging times ahead. So the best thing is to prepare for those times. And then walk in that direction to make more sales. So Lee, obviously you work with lots of businesses and how do you see, those businesses, preparing to manage these times?
Lee Warren: I see lots of different ways of preparing and even worse, I see lots of people not preparing, just panicking which is not not an approach I’d advocate. It depends quite a bit obviously on, on the market and what someone’s selling. So most obviously there’s a clear difference between services and products, for example, in how you might approach a downturn in difficult times.
Certainly some of the most successful things many people are doing. One of the things that happens psychologically in, in difficult times is everybody tends to hunker down. They tend to narrow in. On a very specific area of focus. So for example, one of my clients is I don’t want to say their name because I work with them, but they do facilities management for example So they run buildings and they’ll organize the all of the security and the toilet stuff and all those sorts of things.
And actually their view is really interesting because their view is that a recession, a downturn is very good for them because all of their clients rent the buildings and in a downturn, their clients vote in good times, their clients try and do everything because they’ve got the money to try and do everything.
So they try and manage the building themselves and outsource loads of things. But in downturn, they focus just on what they’re good at. And sorry, and then they out, then they bring in other experts to do that stuff. So in some markets, a downturn can be a good thing. If you know precisely what you’re good at and where other people need you.
So one of the best forms of preparing I’ve seen most people do is to really focus on the real problems That they solve for their target market, the real deep problems that actually those people are going to have an experience and have magnified in a downturn and then focus on helping selling to those.
Ketan Gajjar: Of course. Of course. And then, you mentioned about the psychological aspect. It’s the mindset of the buyers. And I generally, from what, as a person, you’d obviously want to your spend on luxury and which is where, you mentioned about narrowing down on you know, what your expertise is and, maybe outsource the rest.
So from the sales professionals perspective or company’s perspective it’s always important to identify, what is their sweet spot and then, how can they assist companies. in challenging times.
Lee Warren: Yeah, absolutely. And a big part of that is, if I could genuinely do magic, if I could magically give salespeople one gift, that the gift I would give them is to be able to see the world from their client’s point of view.
All right. That’s the gift I would give them. And so when we’re approaching a downturn or in a downturn, one of the best things that a sales professional can do, and this is true, whether you’re leading a sales team or whether you’re in the sales team facing customers.
One of the best things you can do is really get into their world and really see what’s happening from their point of view. What are they focused on? What are their problems? What are their priorities? What are they worried about in three months time in six months time? Because in that way of seeing the world, you start to get a lot of what I call sales [00:05:00] ammunition.
You start to really understand how they think. You start to really understand how to talk to them in their own language. And also you start to believe much more in your own, Value one of the one of the I lived through the last two big recessions in the united kingdom So in the early 90s when I first Became an adult when I first moved to london and then 2008 2011 i’ve lived through both of those and one of the biggest mistakes i’ve seen salespeople make In those times is they get, they get more energetic.
They try and sell more, but they start pushing themselves at their market in ways that are about the sales person. So in other words, if you imagine, when you go on holiday and you’re walking along the beach and there are some people outside the restaurants on the beach and they’ve got a menu in their hands and they try, they’re saying, hello, sir.
Hello, madam. Come in, come and eat here. Come and eat here. You immediately push them away. Because their sales energy is it’s all about them and they want to take something from you. And then you can [00:06:00] imagine another restaurant on that beach, and it’s down the corner and it’s a little bit hidden and there’s a queue to get in and nobody is outside trying to persuade you.
And you feel like you want to go to that restaurant. Why does everybody else want to go there? And one of the things that restaurant has is it is. Is the sales energy that it has is we are exactly right for our market. We understand our market and we’re so good at what we do. You might even have to wait a little bit and it’s very counterintuitive this because the instinct when times are difficult is to start selling more, to start pushing more, but it’s very often, not always, but it’s very often.
the wrong way to go about it.
Ketan Gajjar: Of course. And then, it’s important for everybody in, in, in the business to understand that, if there’s a downturn if the times are challenging, then the decision making cycles are going to be longer. And then, especially from the sales professionals perspective, that’s the mindset that they need to have that, it’s going to take longer than expected.
Instead of being pushy like you mentioned, let me put myself into my client’s [00:07:00] shoes. See what the challenges are not just from the end product or service perspective, but internally as well to come to a certain decisions, maybe You know, personal, emotional, or even from the budget perspective.
Lee Warren: Yeah, absolutely. I couldn’t agree more on that thing about, and again, this depends very much on what your market is, but if you’re selling into corporates or even larger SMEs the internal decision making process is, it’s what I call the invisible audience. So when you’re talking to perhaps your buyer you’ve also always got to be talking to the people they have to go and talk to.
And sometimes you’ll never meet those people. You’ll never even know who they are. And one of one of the greatest tips that I’ve picked up myself and certainly tried to transfer to other people is a to understand what that process is like. How many meetings are they going to go and have?
How? What? What’s the decision making chain? And then literally to tell your buyer the things that are useful for them to say. to that decision chain. So often, in sales meetings, I’ll advocate saying things like, look, probably people are going to ask you a and B and C. Well, here’s some great information for that.
Here’s some great stats for that. Or they might say, have they got any great testimonials? Yes, here they are. I’ve emailed them to you right now so you can use them. So in a way you need to prepare your buyer. You need to coach your buyer on how to handle. Those meetings and give them everything they need.
Ketan Gajjar: I think those are, two great points that you mentioned there. One is the invisible audience. So from a sales professional’s perspective, must know, and you must know that who else is involved in the decision making process or even, influencing the decision. That’s one.
And two is, building the report to the extent where. You get the potential information as well that, okay, fine. Who else is involved? What are potential questions that might be asked? And this can come in, in any form, maybe the challenges as well that, okay, fine. This is what we’re trying to address.
And then this is what we want.
Lee Warren: Oh, yeah, absolutely. And so I couldn’t agree more. And some of the ways, some of the ways of building that rapport, of course, are a huge conversation. And most of these things they tend to be a little bit easier face to face rather than. On certainly than on the phone or over email Virtual calls are somewhere in the middle of that.
But getting that report Involves avoid certainly avoiding one mistake. This is possibly the biggest single mistake I see any sales kind of person make again and again, which is they try and Prescribe before they’ve diagnosed properly And again, I sit in sales meetings with people. I watch people’s sales pitches all the time You and over again, what I see is I see people going for the answer or going for what they’re trying to sell far too early.
And that’s a real way of breaking rapport actually. And again, pushing yourself at people. And some of the people who are just brilliant at building rapport, they do a few things. They ask more interesting questions than most of us do, because if you ask boring questions, you get boring answers, right?
If you ask interesting questions, you get really interesting answers. They’re really great at getting clients to talk about themselves and what their pressures are what their interests are And they don’t rush to a conclusion and some of the bravest salespeople will say things quite often look i’m not sure if what i’ve got for you is Exactly, right?
But let’s look at this bit of it or they’ll say things like okay I’m still not quite clear on what you need. Let’s talk about it a bit more They’re very brave and it’s a great way of building rapport and I have A rule of thumb in my own business. I know when I’ve got perfect rapport with a client, when they say something to me I shouldn’t really tell you this, but if they have anything like that, I know we’re really getting on well.
Ketan Gajjar: Definitely. Definitely. And then, like you mentioned it’s the discovery questions which are important rather than. Rushing to the conclusion or following the rule of thumb, which is, ABC, always be closing which in in, in the hindsight you know, of the sales process is good, but then you can’t start with that mindset of always be closing.
Then, You’re not looking at the micro process of asking the right questions, getting those right answers, building the rapport, which is a process in itself.
Lee Warren: Yeah, absolutely. And always be closing is a very, it’s a very old fashioned way I think of thinking about sales and it’s particularly old fashioned because it predates social media and it’s really easy to underestimate.
The impact that social media has had on not only on the sales journey, but on how we interact with people in general So for example on a very simple level if we think about the most classic form of sales You know buying a car before social media the person selling the car had all the power So you would have to go to the showroom and you’d know nothing almost.
And you’d have to say, I want this kind of car and they’d show you cars. And they had all the power. They knew how much it was. They knew what the profit margins were as the buyer. You were quite vulnerable in many ways. Also, once they’d sold you that car and you drive away, that’s sort of it. That’s the maybe you call him once a year for a service or something, but with Google.
Ketan Gajjar: Sorry. You got it. Sorry.
Lee Warren: Just to finish the thought with Google and social media, that, that whole equation has turned completely the other way around. Nobody goes to buy a car now, without doing loads of research online, by buyers have the power, they arrive armed with information.
And what this means is two things. One is it’s so easy to stay in touch. So we don’t, as buyers, we don’t think about closing a sale. We think about opening a relationship. We want to stay in touch with good suppliers. But the other thing is now the problem that buyers have, they used to have the problem.
They don’t have information. Now they have the problem. They have too much information. So who do I trust to make sense of this information for me? That’s where the dynamic lies now.
Ketan Gajjar: Exactly. And then there’s a good part to technology and social media. And then, this actually point links in well with one of our points of of mindset and the face to face meetings.
So majority of the sales or business development, especially during COVID and now has happened over zoom or video calls from the mindset perspective What are your thoughts, especially in the downturn? Do you think meeting customers face to face adds value, to the overall process and you know Is that something that sales professionals should you know execute?
Lee Warren: So generally, I think the answer is yes, wherever possible. So I certainly think face to face can add great value. And I think where it’s possible and where it’s compliant and where it’s reasonably easy and stress free, I think that’s true. There are a few caveats. So one is the way the culture of the world is changing around obviously climate change and wasteful use of resources.
So I think you have to be very cognizant of different cultures around that. So for example, one client. Will be very flattered that you’ve made the effort to go and see them, et cetera, et cetera Another client might be slightly nervous about how that looks if you’ve flown to see them or whatever So I think there’s an edge to it these days which you have to take into consideration [00:14:00] However, generally if i’m given the choice i’d much rather see someone in person than on zoom And i’d much rather see them on zoom than just have a phone call And I’d rather have a phone call than just have an email.
So I think there’s a chain of connection and where there are some moments where it’s not obvious that this is valuable. And one of those is in how clients build their own purchasing decisions. So in other words, as a salesperson, One of the hardest things is to come in at the end of a procurement process.
So particularly with corporates, if corporates say, look, we’ve got this thing, we need exactly this. Here’s the process to, to become a supplier for us. Please fill in 800 pages of forms to try and be a supplier. That’s really, that’s tough. That’s really tough to deal with. It takes loads of energy and often it’s just a waste of time.
So very often with face to face, you can find out a lot of these other opportunities that are in very early stages, or perhaps they haven’t even happened yet. And in your meeting, you can create them and you can then be involved at very [00:15:00] early stages. And basically you can help to shape those procurement processes to suit you and your strengths.
And you can often short circuit. So that’s, it’s not necessarily immediately obvious, but that’s a way where face to face can be really valuable. And also the other thing that’s not obvious is you can often get to know the culture of a client and the culture of their organization just by going to see them.
There’s something about being in the building and meeting some of their colleagues and sitting in reception and whatever. It can really help to give you understanding.
Ketan Gajjar: Exactly. Obviously downturn or no downturn the mindset has to be of building relationship for you to be, ahead of the game, ahead of your competitors.
And then by the way, we’ve got a couple of questions so we’ve got a question from part should we increase sales activities in a downturn?
Lee Warren: So yeah, I think the answer is yes. But the specific answer is, but be very careful about what the activities are. Now, obviously it’s really hard to be general about this because some people are much more cold call driven.
Some people are much more relationship driven or referral [00:16:00] driven. On that note, by the way, I think referrals, getting referrals, getting testimonials, widening your network in a very trust based way, is one of the really dynamite things to do in a downturn. Because, for all the reasons we all know, getting referrals, you get referred at the right level, It’s much easier to meet people, to sell to people, to engage with people.
So so as a general answer, yes, but be careful about what those activities are and make sure they’re not You’re not becoming that restaurant with the menu on the beachfront and just randomly shoving loads of stuff Because it’s not good for you and it’s not good for the buyer usually
Ketan Gajjar: Totally and we’ve got a question from kirstie Do you think that during a downturn it is more important to protect current clients from competitors
Lee Warren: or to sell to new clients?
It’s a great question and I think it’s exactly right. So again, with sales people, there’s something about, I’ve been in sales all my life. I know the energy of salespeople really well. There’s something deep in salespeople and it very often for us where a new client is more [00:17:00] exciting than an existing client.
And when we get that email in from a new client that says, we want to work with you X, Y, Zed, it’s nearly always more exciting than an existing client saying, can we do next year what we did last year? And in many ways we have to fight that temptation and we have to make ourselves more excited about our existing clients because our existing clients, they’ve paid their dues.
They’ve shown that, we are worth to them and they’re worth to us. They’re going to refer us to other people. They’re going to move to another business and take us with them. Generally speaking, existing clients are more valuable than new clients. Not always, of course, but yes, I think it’s exactly right.
Protect them, love them, nurture them. And actually, one thing I do sometimes, when you meet new clients and they say, can you give us an introductory offer? I very often say to people, actually, that would mean me punishing my existing clients. What I tend to do is give existing clients introductory offers.
So let’s say the fifth time we work together, I’ll say, Oh, let me give you a discount because I really appreciate we now work together for five [00:18:00] years. It’s you’re due a discount. So yes, look after your existing clients.
Ketan Gajjar: Totally. So you basically incentivize them and obviously, it’s a bit of a treat for them to work with you and sustain the relationship.
Lee Warren: Yeah, absolutely. Treat is a lovely word. It should feel particularly when we’ve got personal relationships with clients, when it’s not entirely transactional and online, it should feel like a treat. People should look forward to meeting you. They should have a smile on their face, or they should be interested, or they should, it should be a good moment in their day when they meet you.
Ketan Gajjar: I think then, I’m lucky to be, working with so many agencies who sort of love to meet me every couple of months, when I travel to the UK.
Lee Warren: Yeah, great.
Ketan Gajjar: We were talking about AI and chat GPT, early on before the LinkedIn live. How do you think, from the, sales and business development professionals perspective they should attune their mindset and, things to do to stand apart?
Because. Everybody’s going to put in those questions and you’re going to have similar kind of [00:19:00] responses Coming across and then same sort of pitches
Lee Warren: Yeah, absolutely. So there are lots everybody i’m still trying to get my head around the astonishing implications just in case anybody watching doesn’t know so so ai artificial intelligence There’s now a form of it you can use called chat gpt, which is a pre trained brain basically and it’s quite remarkable what you can do I mean you can go to it and ask it for almost any question and to do anything for you So for instance, a few days ago it designed for me a month long program of healthy eating based on the food I like and my height and my weight and It took about four minutes Including some questions from you, right?
So the implications are astonishing. So in terms of sales, a few things are probably going to happen. And I think there are a few ways that are that I’m turning over in my mind, how salespeople can use this. So the first is, and this is particularly for those of you who need to have a bit more, if you like, of a personal [00:20:00] brand or a personal presence.
So all those questions we’ve been tussling with for ages, how do I show up online? How do I show up on LinkedIn? Instagram good emails, all that sort of thing. ChatGPT can now give you loads of ideas. What I don’t recommend is I don’t recommend getting it to do all the work for you. So let’s say for example, I wouldn’t, if you’re in recruitment.
I wouldn’t go to chat GPT and say write me a blog post on how to be a good recruiter. I wouldn’t then take that and put that online but I might go to chat GPT and say Tell me 10 things about recruitment in 2023 No one’s thinking about yet, and it will come up with some answers And you can then also say to it make those answers humorous, or make those answers more interesting, or give me some data to justify those answers.
So you can get loads of ideas for your own content online, your own personal brand online. That’s one way. Another way is you can use this to analyze the problems of your marketplace. So I’m making this up. So let’s say for [00:21:00] example, you were selling into retailers. Let’s say you’re dealing with high street retailers.
You could go to chat, GPT and ask it, tell me the biggest worrying trends for retailers in 2023. And it will give you some ideas. They won’t necessarily be a hundred percent correct, but it will start your process thinking you can write in natural language. You can say, I’ve got a sales meeting tomorrow.
With XYZ business, they are a financial services firm dealing in this and this. What problems are they likely to be thinking about? Or how should I structure my sales meeting? What questions should I definitely ask them? You can use chat gpd for all this kind of stuff. However, there’s a downside and that is that lots of people are going to be doing versions of this.
So for example, loads of people are going to be using it to write their CVs, right? Loads of people are going to go to chat GPD, say, go to my LinkedIn profile, write me a CV, and that will feel easy. And lots of people will do it. But the problem is a lot of us will start to become the same, [00:22:00] right? A lot of the wording will be the same, will feel the same.
And the good news, if you’re in sales, Is that I think I don’t have a crystal ball, but I think this will mean that personal touches, personal connection, personal communication will become more important because we’ll have all this information and we won’t know. Has an AI written this? Is this real? Did someone take an hour to write it or one minute to write it?
I need to see you face to face. I need to talk to you because I’ve got all the information, but can I trust it? So anyone who’s face to face, anyone who’s good at sales in person will stand out a bit more.
Ketan Gajjar: So it’s just where, again, the crux of the matter is that, you got to be prepared to, spend time developing relationships.
And then that there’s no right time you start now you don’t start You know when there’s an actual downturn or when there’s a challenging situation Totally.
Lee Warren: Yeah, absolutely There’s a lovely old I think it’s a chinese phrase Isn’t it the best time to [00:23:00] plant a tree was 20 years ago?
The second best time to plant a tree is today so yeah and the other thing is, this is a networking question in many ways. And of course your network is, will be a real help to you if you’ve got a network as a salesperson. But build your network before you need it always.
It’s golden rule.
Ketan Gajjar: Exactly. And then, lastly The ham and pie approach, that that’s what I think, most of the people here would and then I really loved it, when you discuss this in the elite forum.
Lee Warren: So it’s very simple, really.
So it’s a way of thinking about being more, more engaged, engaging, more persuasive in your communications, whether that’s talking to somebody or writing an email or putting a pitch together. And it’s an acronym, HAMPIE, H A M P I E, and it stands for some really simple ideas. So HAM stands for hearts and minds, and the idea is very basic.
It’s when we’re engaging with people, when we’re building relationships, when we’re connecting with people, when people are listening to our ideas, when they’re considering our products and services very often that the human decision [00:24:00] making process will be that somebody will make an emotional decision first, And then they’ll justify that decision rationally afterwards.
So HAM part, HAM, H A M, is a reminder to you, go for the emotion first. Get a connection with someone. Get someone smiling, or get them thinking. Tell them something they didn’t know. Build a bit of rapport, right? Get a warm feeling in the meeting. Go for that stuff first, before you go for the minds. So don’t throw your pitch deck at them.
Don’t start with a complex slide in a meeting. And a really simple example of this on our call today is everybody on the call, if you think, if I were to ask you, do you think spinach, the vegetable spinach is healthier for you, better for you than chocolate and cakes and sugary things? Most people on this call, you’d probably say, yes, spinach is healthier for me, better for me than chocolate and cakes.
And if I were to ask you honestly, do you eat spinach more often than you eat vegetables? Chocolate and sugary treats. Most people would say no, right? Most people say that and I’ve asked tens of thousands of [00:25:00] people this question and I know the answer Most people say no and why and i’m just speaking for myself It’s because I like sugary things more than I like spinach I made that emotional decision a long time ago and nobody can change my mind just using facts So if somebody saw me eating some chocolate They can say, Lee, don’t eat that chocolate bar.
It’s 2000 calories. And my brain will say it’s only 2000 calories, right? I will change the shape of the universe to suit that emotional prejudice. And then PIE stands for just a really quick way of remembering some ways to get this emotional connection. So P is pictures. So paint pictures in people’s minds, tell stories, use metaphors, analogies, easy comparisons.
People who are very engaging, they tend to talk visually all the time. They say, Where we want to be is dot. Wouldn’t it be great if we could dot dot. Imagine if dot. Describe to me, tell me, explain to me. They’re always thinking visually. The I of PI stands for interest. And this is something we’ve talked about a lot already.
But you’ve [00:26:00] got to relentlessly focus on what’s interesting to you. to your customer, your client, right? You’ve got to really focus on them, not on yourself. And then the E stands for enthusiasm. And it just means the first person you have to sell to always is yourself. You have to really believe your own stuff.
You have to be able to articulate your value. You have to know why you’re solving really meaningful problems for your clients, why it matters to them, what you’re doing for them. And you have to be enthusiastic about that. So in a brief rundown that’s what hand pie stands for.
Ketan Gajjar: It’s amazing, hearts and minds is what you’ve got to conquer before you actually present spinach.
Lee Warren: Yeah. And the funny thing is it’s really simple advice, but it’s one of those things. It’s a bit like, if you want to get into, in shape, you’ve got to go to the gym and eat salad, right? Everybody knows that. And yet most of us will pay someone to remind us of that. We pay personal trainers to remind us of these really, because we forget because we get busy and it’s like this in sales.
We know we’ve got to get an emotional connection, but we forget over and over again. [00:27:00] We know we shouldn’t talk about ourselves too much and we forget over and over again.
Ketan Gajjar: It’s the the typical transactional mindset that comes into picture, because, what you’ve got on mind is, I’ve got to close, I’ve got to close.
And then you forget all the nuts and bolts involved in the process.
Lee Warren: Yeah, absolutely. Or sometimes the opposite happens. We get too bogged down in the nuts and bolts. We get too bogged down in the processes and the systems and everything. And we forget to keep that emotional connection by focusing on value, focusing on the relationship, focusing on the real outcome for the client.
Ketan Gajjar: So in terms of the takeaway, would you say that, relationship building is. It’s a lifetime worth of activity that one must keep going irrespective of the situations.
Lee Warren: Yeah, absolutely. And to go back to the theme of, in a downturn, I think, if you could only, if you could only do one thing really well, it would be keep your relationships and build good new relationships, definitely in sales, because it brings so many opportunities and it creates opportunities that didn’t exist [00:28:00] before you had the relationship.
Ketan Gajjar: Fantastic. Fantastic. Lee, thank you very much for sharing your insights on selling in the downturn and especially the ham pie approach. I’m sure the audience, obviously would have loved it. And thanks for being on Recruitment Curry.
Lee Warren: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Ketan Gajjar: Cheers.
