Ketan Gajjar: Hi there. Namaste. How are you? This is Ketan Gajjar, your host from the very AAPNU Ahmedabad in India. Welcome to Recruitment Curry. Today, we are talking about the role of grit and determination with Chris O’Connell, who is a leadership coach, mentor, and a performance coach. Chris, welcome to the show.
Chris O’Connell: Ketan, absolutely thrilled and honored to be on. Thank you so much.
Ketan Gajjar: Great. So Chris you have an extensive background in the recruiting industry and now working as a, being coach as well. And, helping number of number of clients. So would you be kind enough to give a brief background about yourself and then, how do you assist individuals and agencies?
Chris O’Connell: Yeah, no, I’d love to. So I’ve got 25 years recruiting experience. I started out in 1998 for a big company called the S3 group in the UK, but they’re actually worldwide, two and a half thousand consultants there. I was the worldwide top biller, placing contractors, project program managers, change managers into various different organizations, was billing about a million pounds a year, became a manager, director, team leader, and loved the whole concept of recruitment and became very skilled at it.
And That business was amazing. If you cut me in half, I would bleed S3. I didn’t think I’d ever leave, but then I just woke up one day, left, sat on my own business, recruiting business in 2003, got back to a hundred people 32, 33 million pounds turnover three offices, 14 industry awards. So loads of awards for our profitability, loads of awards for our culture as well, which I’m really proud of.
Proud about. So how we engage with our customers, how we engage with our colleagues as well. I’ll talk about that in a bit more detail, but the culture was really good. And I sold that through private equity, but the transaction went wrong. So I lost millions of pounds. I lost my identity. I lost my my, my home.
I lost my business. I lost access to my children, had some very dark. Mental health problems as well. I came back into the industry sector three or four years ago [00:02:00] and utilized my experiences, my, my, my great successes and also my failures and losses to now become a renowned and respected NED. So I go into businesses now and help them grow.
And I’m loving that I’m a mental health first aider. Podcast host myself as well, but the joy I’m getting from. Helping businesses grow is fantastic. So yeah, that’s a bit of an intro there.
Ketan Gajjar: Thanks. Thanks, Chris. So you obviously, seen the ups and downs, you, you’ve been there you’ve done that.
You obviously don’t wear down and, you’re backup, assisting and helping, number of people, in the industry as well. So what we want to cover Chris is precisely, your experience of, how it feels when you’re on a high and you obviously, how do you cope up?
With the downs as well. And, bouncing back is the name of the game and given working and recruiting is quite, high pressure environment. So how does, how does grit and determination, what is the role, both these, trades play in being a successful recruiter and thriving in the industry?
Chris O’Connell: I think it’s one [00:03:00] of the most important aspects of the role in terms of you’re dealing with people, and they can change their mind at any given moment. They can choose to sell themselves to the role or not, or the client can change. It’s a very kind of up and down roller coaster type environment.
And what I’ve learned is that when you’re doing really well, that’s great. I think it’s about enjoying those moments, but also keeping a level head because nothing’s permanent. And when you’re in the shit or, it’s a difficult time for you, I think it’s about having perspective around actually, what am I grateful for And realizing that’s not permanent either.
So what I’m trying to say is I almost define it as like an American football field where there’s end zone, one end zone is really negative when you’re in a bad situation. The other end zone is when you’re flying and actually it’s not really that good to be in either end zone. You want to try and keep this kind of 50 yard line thing where you’re, you try and maintain a level of measure, really.
So I’m not saying don’t enjoy the highs, absolutely celebrate those, but just remember that. Things can change. So I think that dedication, that kind of [00:04:00] magic dust, that kind of resilience it’s huge in recruitment. And I think it’s a fundamental aspect. And I’ve learned more from my adversity, trauma, mistakes losses than I have from my successes.
And if anything, I think people respond. really when they’re in the most difficult situation because you can only, you have to take action, right?
Ketan Gajjar: Of course there is an alternative to action, isn’t it?
Chris O’Connell: Yes, absolutely. And I think yeah, procrastination can be the death of you, can’t it? I’d sooner regret something I’ve done than regret something I haven’t done.
Ketan Gajjar: Totally. Totally. In terms of grit how does one, develop grit and then, what is grit and then, how? How does that relate to your day to day, handling pressure, handling the highs and the lows and then, surviving whatever environment you’re into, be it sport, be it business.
Chris O’Connell: Yeah. Again, I think it comes with losses, defeats, mistakes. And I think you become more [00:05:00] resilient as it’s how you, it is how you respond. And I think that everyone’s got their own form of adversity or difficulty. And I think at some point in time you have a choice as to go, Oh, this has happened to me, or actually this has happened to me for a reason.
How can I use, utilize it? So with my example, I’ve had some fantastic highs, but my losses, I actually, I wouldn’t say I enjoy them, my mistakes and my, my, my failures, but actually I, it’s almost a gift. It’s actually, this has happened to me for a reason. How can I utilize it? And then I use that to help a mental other.
So I think it’s a process. I think it takes time. I think it’s one of those where if you’re a glass half empty person, you’re not ever going to learn. I think it’s just about learning from your mistakes and almost just embracing the hardship sometimes is the way to do, I think.
Ketan Gajjar: Sure. For somebody who is, let’s say, new to the recruiting industry and of course, they’re going to see some very good highs, when they’re getting interviews.
When they’re placing a lot of candidates and all of a sudden, you have one bad quarter where you know Things just go down south. Yeah, what would your advice be? For the newbies in the recruiting, industry, you know who are probably first six to twelve months And given the market situation right now, it’s a candidate short market.
There are lots of offers but there are a lot of counter offers as well. Yeah. What would you advise, those people?
Chris O’Connell: I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. Yeah. We’re all in the same boat. And I think it’s, it is about accountability and awareness. So at the end of the day you can have all the right tools, the right information, motivation, but if you’re not doing the basics consistently, you put your head on the pillow and go, actually, I’ve had a good day today.
So for me, There’s not a recruiter in the land that hasn’t had a bad day, week, month or quarter. It happens, right? And you have to take the rough with the smooth, but I think it’s about consistency and what understanding what constitutes a good day, a good week, a month is it making a hundred phone calls?
Probably not actually having tangible business conversations. What actions are you doing to ensure that you’re going to have good outcomes? So it’s like I said earlier ultimately your success. Is really down to you. So you can blame other people, blame managers, and actually more often than not, when we really reflect, we know whether actually I’ve had a bad quarter, not because of the market, not because of the counteroffer, these things do happen.
Sometimes it’s just about being accountable to yourself, but also sometimes it’s Hey, that was out of my control. I’ve done everything. And it’s don’t dwell on it too much. Just, you’ve got to look forward. I think,
Ketan Gajjar: Sure. Sure. And is there any framework? You would suggest, recruiters specifically to follow that you have used, over the years and, found to be successful.
Chris O’Connell: Yeah. That’s a broad question, but I think it does come down to organization. I think it’s important to map out your market, know the size of your market, understand where you are now, where you want to get to and how you’re going to get there. That’s for me, fundamentally, that starts with a good, easy to follow day plan.
So each day understand what the three to five most important objectives are that you want to deliver each day and get organized. And, I tend to look at task management as opposed to time management. So due to our sprints of hard work, have a little break, making sure you’re having breaks as well.
But I think it’s, I think it’s doing the basics consistently and it’s building relationships, right? So With the, I think email work from anywhere, work from home is great, but I think if you can do pick up a phone, if you can do meet your customers, if you can do leave a voice note instead of a text messages, it’s just going the extra mile, but building that relationship.
But also not my, one of my mantras is. Nobody’s inferior and nobody’s superior. So when I was business developing, for example, I didn’t put a client on a pedestal and I think a lot of recruitment consultants put clients on pedestals. They can speak to candidates really easily, but they get the fear with the client.
I actually not position yourself as the expert and Be a human being as well. Sometimes I think we can be overly business orientated and actually people want to deal with a human being.
Ketan Gajjar: Absolutely. And that’s where the role of there’s a thin line and especially for the new ones, who come into the sector we tend to see that, okay, fine you, yes, being professional is one thing, but then at the same time the human element has to come out, which is what your point and, it relates to your recent post as well about, putting clients on the pedestal.
And then, exactly sure that, okay, fine. How should I conduct? And then the pressure tactics, obviously play a big role as well, because if I’m a rookie, going into a new client meeting, I’m obviously going to be on the back foot. Oh God, it’s first or second or third client meeting.
I have to get this client. And I’m determined to to make my way through which is where, again, observed a lot of people, do make compromises on the quality of the clients as well, because your goal is just getting a client. Isn’t it? It’s nothing else, but.
Chris O’Connell: I think absolutely. I think cause the market’s quite strong at the moment. A lot of my clients are saying, Oh, we’ve got so many jobs on now. We don’t need to business development. But I question that because I’d soon have a consultant working on [00:10:00] five quality jobs, quality clients with control, good fees in two slots book than having 15 jobs on and, delivering poor service to a few as opposed to doing great service.
I think it’s so important that actually we’re ruthless and go actually. Can I see the deal? Is this business actually going to make me is the client and if they’re not walk away or change what you’re doing, I think we get delusions of grandeur, this is a great client, but actually it’s not because you haven’t placed anyone, it’s like that, it’s that kind of thinking and yeah, I think it’s an interesting one.
Ketan Gajjar: Sure. Chris. So Chris from the determination perspective one is consistency you mentioned any rates, it’s the process following the basics. How determination plays a role that, and there are certain things, we do on an average day and we don’t see the results. So you go and work out on day one, you won’t see a lot of, change day two, no change, no day three, no change.
So what role determination plays and, how long should one carry on being focused on just one specific thing? [00:11:00]
Chris O’Connell: I think I think. It’s breaking objectives down into small chunks. So I’m all for three to five year business plans and all this kind of stuff. But if ever I asked someone to do a business plan, it’s 18 months, because I think that’s all you can really look at.
What’s around the corner. And then within that, it’s the next 90 days. And then we go back and say what do you want to do this month? So I think it’s, what I’m trying to say is I think it’s about understanding where you’re heading in the big picture, but also saying. I need to chip away at this every day, even to the hour.
It’s I can put the head on the pillow and go, actually, I haven’t done a deal this week or this month or this, but I’ve added this understanding that it’s the steps along the way that get you there. And that’s how you can motivate yourself. But in terms of motivation, dedication and determination, it’s an ongoing thing.
And sometimes you’re going to have bad day. So it’s breaking it down into smaller chunks and celebrating your small wins. I think,
Ketan Gajjar: of course, and don’t let your bad days turn into bad weeks and then bad weeks into months by just by procrastinating that, Oh, it’s not working. Isn’t it?
No,
Chris O’Connell: absolutely. And I think it’s about being open. [00:12:00] If you are struggling, this is why I am a passionate advocate for vulnerability and leadership. So as a leader of your business, recruitment business, If you are a human being and you’re a bit open and a bit vulnerable, what that tends to lead to is that your people then become like that as well.
And that’s what you want. You want your consultants to be actually, I’m struggling with this and not be afraid to tell you that rather than leading with a nine fist and pushing and expecting them to do more. If the results aren’t happening, sometimes it might not even be. In work stuff, it might be stuff that’s going on outside of work, and they’re more likely to tell you that, and that’s what you want.
You want that kind of relationship.
Ketan Gajjar: Sure. So on that note, in fact, I was going to ask you that, you are a mental health, advocate. And what tips would you have for the recruiters in terms of, having taking care of their mental health? While at work, while off work.
Chris O’Connell: Hopefully the environment that they’re in is more conducive to mental health. Now I think there’s much more flexibility. There’s much more awareness, understanding and empathy of that. So I think it’s about trying to be open with your colleagues and your bosses encouraging others to [00:13:00] talk about it.
I think hopefully your leaders will be doing that. But I think where I went wrong when I was running my business was I, it was 99. 9 percent of my entire life. That’s all I ever thought about. I slept eight. Drank, talked about it and it eventually led to burnout. So I think that it’s about making sure that you’re productive.
I’d sooner you go all out for a couple of hours and have a break all out for a couple of hours and then try and do this eight to late thing where you just can get burnt out. So it’s working smart, work hard. But I think that I’m a living example where I’m probably doing less hours now than I ever have, but I’m more productive and earning more money.
So I think it’s sometimes. Less is more.
Ketan Gajjar: Sure. And then you covered it earlier, the podcast sprint, like a lion. So yeah, .
Chris O’Connell: That’s so true, isn’t it? And I, and it’s enjoyable then I think that’s yeah, and also how you approach your business as well. It’s not necessarily how many actions you’re doing, it’s the, it’s just the quality of all your actions
Ketan Gajjar: Of course.
And the consistency. Doing one thing once in a month is not gonna help unless it’s really big.
Chris O’Connell: No, absolutely. Consistency is a big one, isn’t it?
Ketan Gajjar: And you mentioned about, breaking tasks into, smaller chunks and then, reviewing it on an average day.
What are the important tasks from a recruiter’s perspective? And obviously it’s reaching out to the candidates or clients and then mapping the market. That, okay that you want to deliver. So again, coming back to, if somebody wants to be a successful recruiter, they’re going to see those ups and downs in, in, in their lives.
Any personal advice that you have for them, that they must follow out of work. Okay, fine. This is my job, I’m going to make calls. I’m going to, try and meet and et cetera, et cetera.
Chris O’Connell: I think in a nutshell, be the CEO of your life, as opposed to the CEO of your business.
So this whole kind of work life balance thing, I think it’s more it’s life. One of my coaching businesses there’s six facets is business is personal development. There’s health and fitness, there’s purpose, there’s financial and there’s relationships. So I feel that take a step back.
And for example, if you haven’t got good relationships or you’re not physically well, or you’re not personal, not doing personal development, that can have a huge impact on what you’re doing at work. So have a morning routine is a good one. I wake up every morning. I walk into the bathroom and look at myself in the mirror and I engage myself and I actually high five myself.
So what I’m trying to say is I tune into myself. I’ve got a whiteboard in my bedroom with my values on it and some manifestations. So as soon as I wake up, I’m thinking positive. I’m going into myself. I’m I’m not comparing myself to other people. So what I think is it’s self talk is really important.
Exercise, the right diet. It’s, this whole kind of work hard, play hard thing. I think you have to treat. Your life outside of work as a business in a way it would. So I think where we go wrong sometimes is we put all our efforts and energy into the business and we forgo the relationships.
We forgo the mental health. We forgo our purpose and our, our relationships and our personal development. You’ve got to try and find a way where you’re apportioning some time to these aspects as well. Because when you do, your business flies because you’re more clearer, you’re making better decisions.
So I think it’s that balance around, instead of it being 95 business, like apportion some time to some of those other areas. And this is the stuff that I coach. And also, we set business goals and objectives. Why not set personal objectives? It could be, I want to lose X number of pounds, or I want to run a marathon, or I want to listen to 20 podcasts by the end of the year, whatever it might be, that can be a sense of achievement that could be motivation that can give you a lift and you’re going to work, you feel good about yourself as well.
I think that’s important.
Ketan Gajjar: Of course. So which is where the self awareness aspect, also kicks in. Isn’t it that yes, I’m doing great at work or, I must achieve certain successes at work, these are the personal things that I want to learn which has a different kick because Then, you’re building something for your own apart from just investing in the business.
You’re investing in yourself and then, basically you want to be the ceo of your life.
Chris O’Connell: Absolutely. And then I mean if your position where you’re quite a senior person in your business that rubs off on other people as well And you know If you’ve got good wellbeing, good mental health what does that do?
You’re venturing your colleagues, your customers, and your clients in a much better way as well. You’re in a positive mindset. You actually get more business as well. And people come to you. It’s that attraction piece. Whereas if you’re tired and you’re worried and you’re not looking after yourself, that, that comes out in your tone and in what you do and your actions, and therefore it affects your business, right?
Ketan Gajjar: True. And which is once again, a link to procrastination or doing things that are not going to help you. Short term or long term.
Chris O’Connell: That’s the other point, isn’t it? I think in terms of building your business, I think that I’ve always built my businesses on a third, so a third, completely new business, a third where you’ve had some success, you placed two or three people in the third kind of key account business, the [00:18:00] short, medium and long term kind of approach.
And I think that’s what you have to do with your life as well. And, it’s this kind of self gratification that you get on on social media and, buying yourself some nice stuff is good to reward yourself, but. I used to invest in clothes and cars and watches and houses. Now I don’t, I’m not really interested in that.
Now I invest in, I’ve got my own coach. I invest in personal development. I invest in, in experiences. So I’m thinking more medium to long term. And that’s working really well for me.
Ketan Gajjar: True. And that’s where you hit the nail because that’s also important to mental health. It’s not the material things that are going to, help you be happy or, give, yes, they will give pleasure in the short term.
But. When it comes to long term, you haven’t developed something for your own giving examples like you gave, lose X number of pounds or listen to, X number of podcasts, which obviously adds to your knowledge bank and indirectly, helps with your, discussions with your clients, small talk, whatever is needed for the industry, indirectly, for your business.
Chris O’Connell: Absolutely. Absolutely. And [00:19:00] knowledge is power that, the more knowledge, I think the more knowledge you gain, the more interesting conversations you had, as you say, the more business you get, but then you start to meet more interesting people. And I think also the people that you do associate with have a massive reflection on you as well.
So even to the extent of the content that you’re absorbing as well, I’ve canceled or blocked some content. Because it wasn’t helping me. And I only want to connect with people that are going to, I’m going to learn from as well. So it’s really important what you absorb. Also the friends, the family, even to your, even your family members, if they’re not positive for your mental health, you have to question why you’re spending that much time with them.
That’s really important.
Ketan Gajjar: True. So spend time with people and things who actually have a positive impact on your life rather than only going to alienate you or, and then, have a negative impact, isn’t it?
Chris O’Connell: Yeah, and even in the workplace, if it’s getting to a point where it’s not conducive, you may or may not need the money, but there’s always an employer out there or business out there that, that will be good for you.
So don’t be afraid to make those decisions in work as well.
Ketan Gajjar: So it links in properly. You must have the grit and determination Lose things as well that, okay, fine. These are not helping me. And I must let go.
Chris O’Connell: 100 percent saying no to someone or something is saying yes to you.
The power of saying no, it’s a skill setting boundaries is really with clients as well, customers. If a client isn’t playing ball, isn’t paying you on time, or he’s moving the goalposts, say no to them, family, friends and what that does. It, again, it builds respect. In yourself, that self respect piece, and I think more often than not, too many people, they people please for the sake of it, and they only, and they live in this resentment thing, so it’s definitely a skill.
Ketan Gajjar: True. People pleasing is obviously one of the reasons a lot of people end up, spending a long time in wrong places, be it, personal and professional. And then not gaining much out of it.
Chris O’Connell: No. And they get they get walked over and they they get depressed and they blame other people.
And, sometimes it’s difficult and it’s out of your hands, but ultimately, if you really want to change and do something different, you have to do something different, basically.
Ketan Gajjar: Sure. Sure. So Chris, what is one advice you’d give to, rookies and newbies who want to venture into recruiting, on the agency side, specifically?
Chris O’Connell: Yeah, I think it’s not easy. There’s ups and downs, but I think it’s perseverance. I think it’s resilience. I think it’s just keep doing the basics consistently and eventually it will pay off. So I just think patience is actually a paradox because they’re in recruitment. Everyone wants the deal yesterday and everything else will actually slowing down a little bit.
Executing things in the right way, being patient can actually be better than rushing, cutting corners and just climbing that icy mountain and get, you can, recruitment is a hard kick. So just be aware of burnout and just doing things in the right way.
Ketan Gajjar: And then lastly, what would be your advice to somebody who is in a slump, had not won in a couple of bad quarters?
Chris O’Connell: I think that. Ordinarily something good is about to happen and these things happen for a reason. It, I’d say as a gift, no less than what you can learn from it. And the age old thing, don’t give up, keep persevering and where there’s dark, there’s always light. That sounds a bit cheesy, but just keep pushing through.
Fabulous.
Ketan Gajjar: Fabulous. Chris, really appreciate your time. And then obviously the valuable insights I’m sure the listeners will enjoy the podcast. Thanks for being with the Recruitment Curry. Thank you so much, that was really enjoyable. Cheers. Cheers, Chris.
