Importance of planning and processes

Importance of planning and processes

The Recruitment Curry with John Ruffini 

Ketan Gajjar: Hi there. Namaste. This is Ketan Gajjar from the very AAPNU Ahmedabad. Welcome to the Recruitment Curry Podcast. John, hi. Thanks for being the guest on the Recruitment Curry Podcast. Without further ado, obviously if you can introduce yourself mainly from the moneymakers perspective, because that’s what the recruiters like.

John Ruffini: Sure. I appreciate the the opportunity to be here, Ketan. So I’m John Ruffini. I’ve been in professional recruiting for the brunt of my career over 25 years now. I stopped counting at 25. So I just say over 25 now. And and, grew up on a desk doing permanent placement in professional line sectors, full cycle recruitment, business development, and recruitment.

And over the years held various management jobs at local, regional, and national levels. And the past. 10 to 15 years of my career, I really spent in a training, mentoring, and professional development role, helping recruiters become better, whether they’re new recruiters or veteran recruiters looking to tweak their performance.

So I currently work in the healthcare staffing field where I’ve been since 2017, I’m vice president of professional development for a company called health trust workforce solutions. And we are part of HCA healthcare, which is the largest for profit hospital system in the United States. I have a team here and myself and my team are committed to developing people and helping them be the best that they can be.

And my personal focus is obviously on the recruiters of the company. 

Ketan Gajjar: Awesome. So John, it’s an honor to host you, obviously with 25 years plus experience there’s a lot, I’m sure, you have on mind to discuss, but today, what we want to cover is the importance of planning and processes, especially from the recruiter’s perspective, 

John Ruffini: It’s interesting one thing that i’ve always Pride that I always pride myself on is although i’ve been in the industry a long time I haven’t been stagnant if you know what I mean.

It’s very important to me to evolve With the way the industry is evolving. So the way that I used to do business 20 years ago, 10 years ago, five years ago is not the way that a recruiter can do business today because it just changes. So the fundamentals of recruiting don’t change the way that a recruiter conducts business.

They have to evolve, right? So when we talk about planning, I’ve always been passionate about planning and processes, and I’m a big believer in consistency and accountability. The way I always tell people, the way that I used to plan is not the way that I plan now. And it’s not the way that I advise recruiters how to plan.

So it’s, the thing I like to say about planning is there’s no one way to do it. I always tell recruiters that it is planning can be the difference between being a successful recruiter and an unsuccessful recruiter. It’s the Achilles heel of recruiting in any sales professional, because if you don’t plan, then your day eats you alive.

And there’s few things that we’re able to have control over in life, and one of them is how we spend our time. It’s important to at least start the day with a plan and then see what happens next. 

Ketan Gajjar: Sure, so from the recruiter’s perspective, especially for the newbies in the industry, How do you suggest they go about planning?

What are those factors that they should consider? You know when they start that day, 

John Ruffini: They have to first figure out what’s important, right planning is all about Prioritizing and constantly reprioritizing throughout your day. So the recruiter has to figure out. All right first you work back So I would set goals.

All right, I start with how much money do I want to make this year? Because as a recruiter, usually that’s part of the reason why you get into the business. It’s an opportunity to earn a good living. And then based on that, okay what’s the activity I have to do in order to achieve that goal? Great.

And you can break that down into an annual, monthly, even daily occurrence. You say, okay, now that I know what I have to do, when during the day am I going to do that? And then you block out times in the day to execute certain activities that you know will lead you farther down the line toward placements.

Okay. And so that’s the concept of how to plan. And I’m a big believer in time blocking your day. And once you time block your day, the challenge is, can you stick to that plan? And you will be interrupted. So when you get interrupted, then you have to say, all right, do I take this interruption, do I not take this interruption?

Is it more important than what I’m working on now, or is it not? And that’s where the self discipline comes in. But once you have that, it’s important. And within those blocks, for example, recruiters are going to spend a lot of time making phone calls. I’ll give you an example. So if I block my time out and I’m looking for certain people to recruit and source during these times, there’s two ways to go about it.

So I can get to that time block and then start looking for people to call, or I can do the work up front the evening before and build a call list so that when I get to that time block, I can start dialing the ladder will yield infinitely more. Results than the former. So it’s actually planning within planning, but the key to it is once you have your plan mapped out, I always, you probably, see me, I say it every week on LinkedIn to remind myself and my followers, plan your work, work your plan.

So yeah, I can make a plan. I can plan my work, but then when I go to work, my plan from top to bottom, I’m going to be interrupted. So I’ve got to be nimble enough to say, all right, there’s a good chance that some of this won’t get done today. But can I make sure that it’s, that I’m focusing on the most important things and I do get those done.

Ketan Gajjar: Sure. And then, interesting, you mentioned about, planning your day at the latter part of the day, so that next morning you’re ready. When you come in and that’s one dilemma that a lot of new recruiters, when they come into the industry, they have is, Oh, can I call the, let’s say the candidates, early in the morning, let’s say seven half seven or, eight o’clock a.

  1. And then they put off stuff, probably until 10, that’s when they, the candidates get busy. So what are your thoughts on, especially the fear And procrastination, obviously they link it to into planning very well, which derails the entire day, isn’t it?

John Ruffini: Yeah, and there’s it’s also, it’s very easy today’s recruiters the newer ones. They also want to resort to text and email More than the phone a, because it’s easy, but B, what I say is use those mediums because they’re important these days. If you have a mobile number for someone, maybe they’ll respond to a text better or an email.

You don’t know how people are going to react. It should compliment your phone efforts, not replace it. But as far as, you’ve got to try different times in the day. You never know when a candidate’s going to be available. I would tend to plan. I do two things. I plan at the end of my day before I shut down.

And then I also plan before I start the next day, because something could have happened overnight that adjust my plan. So I have to allow for that. So again, I don’t care when you plan or how you plan. I just care that you plan. And for recruiters, it amazes me still to this day when I talk about recruiting and I was like, okay how do I get in touch with this person?

I don’t have a phone number. I don’t have an email. I’m like, do you know where they work? Yeah. Call their work. And the recruiters look at me like, can I do that? And I’m like, of course you can. You’re a recruiter. So that that proactiveness needs to be there for a recruiter to be successful.

Now, would I call someone at seven in the morning? Typically no. Would I call someone at nine at night? Typically no. Unless they gave me permission to do so you want to be respectful. Of a person’s life, obviously. 

Ketan Gajjar: Of course. And then, that links it back to the process part. When you said that if there’s no phone number or an email address, what do you do?

And then whi, which is why, the topic of importance of planning and process, isn’t it? How do you think from the vanilla method of just sourcing that, okay, fine, I will only call the candidate if I’ve got the contact details on the resume. What approach would you suggest, and this is mainly again, for the newbies in the industry that they look out instead of just, look within the resume, that okay, fine.

I don’t have it. If you go, I’m going to just move on. 

John Ruffini: It’s interesting. I, my advice to recruiters is to call everyone, talk to everyone. There’s no such thing as a bad conversation. If the person is within your recruiting space, are you able to place everyone you talk to?

Absolutely not. But you can give them a good experience. You can add value to their career in some way, and they know other people. So every call is a link to your next candidate or your next client or both. So I always say, when in doubt, just pick up the phone and call, don’t look at a resume and analyze it so much that you talk yourself out of calling the person.

If they’re in the industry, they, they may have, not everybody can write a good resume. And there are really strong, talented people that write awful resumes. And they’re really. Not so talented people that write great resumes. Talk to everybody and don’t be afraid to have those conversations.

And the approach is key to time. I always, I always believe that the recruiter, when you approach candidates, you have to earn the right to work with them and you do that by getting to know them and understanding. Them as a person and what’s important to them and what they want.

So I may have a job I’m trying to fill for my client or for my company. But there’s no way I can know if you’re good for that job until I get to know you. So if I’m a recruiter and I call you and I say, Hey, I’m looking at your background, you’d be perfect fit for this job. That’s very assumptive of me when I haven’t even gotten to know you.

So I tend to call folks, introduce myself, say, Hey, I don’t know if I can help you or not, but I’m in your space. I network with folks like you. I learn what you want in your career. And if I come across an opportunity that makes sense. You get the luxury of a phone call and I go, ver go about it from a very much, let’s build a relationship and see if this is mutually beneficial versus I want you for this particular job, if that makes sense.

Ketan Gajjar: Totally does. So John, when it comes to planning and this is, we are talking about, planning before approaching a candidate, what, what factors do you think recruiters should plan, before they actually pick up a call and then, start having a conversation?

John Ruffini: So again, you don’t want to overthink it, but when I call a candidate, number one, I try to group my calls in like blocks, if you will. So whatever I’m recruiting, it’s easier on my mind. If, okay, I’ll take, so what industries does your team recruit for accounting? Okay. So let’s take accounting. So let’s say I’m recruiting staff accountants.

I’m going to have a call block where that’s all I’m calling is staff accountants. If I have a block and I’m calling a staff accountant, then a financial analyst, then a CFO, then an accounting manager, my brain is working way too hard. So I want to call a bunch of staff accountants, one right after the other, because it’s going to be a similar conversation and I’ll have similar opportunities to discuss.

Thanks. So I want to make sure that I’ve got a really strong introduction, who I am, what I do and why I’m calling. And I want to make sure that I highlight what’s in it for them to speak with me. And ideally if I can personalize that in some way, then that’s even better. More important in electronic communication.

So if I have your resume, or if I’m looking at your LinkedIn profile and I can say, the reason I’m looking out to you, reaching out to you is because I noticed you have some great experience with sec reporting at such and such a company that lets the person know that I took the time to read a little bit about them, which in today’s world.

Is very essential. 

Ketan Gajjar: Of course. And then the other part that you mentioned is, have blocks of roles. So if you’re working on similar jobs, then, just, contact the candidates. In that space rather than, being all over. 

John Ruffini: Sure. And because let’s face it, recruiters, we’re going to get voicemail a lot.

So if I’m going to be leaving voicemails, if I’m leaving the same voicemail on every call because I’m calling a similar skilled group, then I become better with each call. If I’m having to adjust that and leave different messages on every call, then I’m starting from scratch every time. I’m also a believer in scripts.

Whenever I believe if you write your own script, it doesn’t sound like a script. So whenever I make calls to this day, I’ve got a script in front of me. It’s not that I don’t know what to say, but rather than think about what to say, I just want to worry about how I’m going to say it. And that’s where that can add a lot of value.

Ketan Gajjar: So it’s a great guide to have a script because if you’re using somebody else’s script you’re going to sound verbatim, at the most. 

John Ruffini: Sure. Yeah. If I wrote a script for you or you wrote a script for me, when we said it, it would sound like a script because we didn’t write it.

But if you write it for yourself, it’s not going to sound like a script. It’s just going to make you sound more confident. And that’s something that’s important because you’ve got that limited space to make a first impression with that candidate. And if you’re stumbling over your words, or you’re running on and on, and it’s too long, and lots of ums and uhs in between, it doesn’t sound as confident.

And candidates want to work with folks that they believe in and that they trust. And part of that is that first impression and building that confidence. 

Ketan Gajjar: Sure. So from the process perspective, [00:14:00] John, when it comes to, being confident in front of the candidates, What factors in your opinion, really, play a major role?

John Ruffini: Gosh, the biggest one is an intangible and it’s just that, that self belief belief in yourself and belief in what you’re doing. If as a recruiter, if you pick up that phone and you don’t believe that the opportunities you have will benefit someone’s career, then you’ve already lost. You’ve got to believe in the value that you’re adding.

You’ve got to believe that the person that you contact, you have a chance to impact their lives and they have an impact chance to impact a company’s performance. And you got to get excited about that. If you’re not excited, they will not be excited. So it’s that personal, even if you’re brand new and it’s day one, I’ve had people that I’ve hired that had no experience and they get on the phone and they act like they’ve done it for 10 years.

That’s what you have to do. You have to decide early on. Here’s who I am. Here’s what I can do. It’s not cocky. It’s confidence and even before you make [00:15:00] it, it’s that old phrase fake it till you make it. There is something to that and you have to just have that confidence. You can’t be, you can’t be weak.

Ketan Gajjar: Totally, and that’s one feedback I give my recruiters that the only medium that your candidates and your prospects have is your voice. So if you don’t sound confident, they won’t trust you, they wouldn’t want to talk to you because you don’t know, what you want to talk about and they don’t have time to just waste talking to you.

John Ruffini: Exactly. So many recruiters, it’s funny, I always say when you’re recruiting, your goal with every call should really just to have a, should be to have a conversation with the person on the other side. If your goal is, Hey, I’ve got to recruit this person. You’re going to lose sight of a lot of information that you’ll learn.

So just have a conversation and see where it goes. Maybe it goes somewhere, maybe it doesn’t, but you can usually learn something. And to your point, the only thing you have is your voice. You tell people it sounds stupid, but it’s true. Smile when you talk, because that makes you sound better.

I used to be one, when I’m on the phone recruiting, I’m 10, I’m pretty much I’m up. I’m walking, I’m using my hands and I’ve got energy flowing because that’s just. That’s how I like to operate. I’d be pacing back and forth while I’m talking on the phone. If you’re slunched over your desk and you’re talking like this Oh, I got to make these 10 calls now that’s going to come through and who’s going to want to work with someone like that, 

Ketan Gajjar: of course.

And then the objective is very different. And you touched upon this point. Like when you were recruiting probably, 20 years back Recruitment was different recruiting is different now. Of course the fundamentals are, obviously the basics are same But when it comes to you know engaging with the candidates, you know previously, the objective was yes i’m going to interview this person like you mentioned right now have a conversation Now that’s one part of the process not a lot of recruiters, you know are either trained or you know You They’re still following the old methodology of that is, I have to interview this candidate and you know I’ll just go question rather than having a conversation.

John Ruffini: They get into order taking mode and the beautiful thing is, I will tell you I still get on the phone today i’ve made it a point Not to be completely removed from the field because I want to be in tune with what’s going on. And new recruiters are amazed. Cause I sit down and I’ve got my form with me, my, screening form for the candidate.

It’s got all the data pieces that I need to obtain, but I don’t follow it like an order taking. Okay, number one, tell me how long you’ve been with your company. Number two, how did all that kind of stuff. You want to have a conversation. You want to talk to someone. I always tell people, if you’re talking to a friend, At a restaurant or in your living room and you wanted to talk with them about their job.

How would you do it? You just have a conversation. How are things going? What are you up to? Oh, what do you think is going to happen next? There’s no, it’s no different. Have that conversation, get to know the person. And in the conversation, it will reveal a lot of the information you need to determine whether or not it makes sense for the two of you to work together.

Ketan Gajjar: Absolutely. And so one more, one more thing that I follow is, conversations lead to conversions. 

John Ruffini: I like that. 

Ketan Gajjar: And I stole it from the, this book I read the author is Chris Smith and then the book is on marketing on, on, how to leverage marketing and, that’s one point he’s mentioned that, conversations, lead to conversions.

John Ruffini: I like that. It’s very true. 

Ketan Gajjar: Unless you talk to a lot of people, unless you converse. Irrespective of the medium, with engage with most people, it’s all about the volume. I know, obviously there’s more emphasis on the quality, but unless you increase your input.

You’re not going to see the increase in the output. 

John Ruffini: You’ve got to have both. You’re absolutely right. And the more seasoned you get as a recruiter, then the easier it is for you to have less volume because you’re more experienced and you’re more connected. So you might be able to get a referral or two really quick and you don’t have to talk to 20 or 30 people early on.

You’ve got to talk to as many people as will allow you to talk to [00:19:00] them. 

Ketan Gajjar: Exactly. Exactly. So linking both planning and process, John, what are three elements, from a new recruiter’s perspective that you’d want them to work on? So let’s say, it’s my first job into a staffing firm.

And then, I don’t know, all my background is, either call center or, some industrial sales. What would you suggest for somebody like me, who’s just walked in day one? Do I just pick up the phone? Do I you know review the jobs? What do I do?

John Ruffini: It’s When I say trust the process It depends on what process you’re trusting, but you have to trust whatever you’re trusting. When you join a company, typically they will have a process. And if they don’t have a process, then I say, find the person who’s the most successful recruiter and learn from them and just do what they do.

You don’t have to reinvent the wheel, internally, if there’s, if people are willing to train you and they’re teaching you the ways of the business, you’re Learn the ways that learn the fundamentals. That’s number one, learn the fundamentals of the business in everything in life. If you’re not grounded in the fundamentals, you’ll never succeed.

And that goes for business, for sports, for everything. So learn the fundamentals of the business first. Once you have learned the fundamentals, then develop a style that works for you. Figure out how am I going to interview candidates and make it consistent so that you’re working efficiently.

And I always tell people when you watch me interview someone, if I interviewed 10 people, you would see the same thing 10 different times because I’ve developed a flow of how I traverse that conversation. And for the most part, it’s the same different nuances based on the candidate. So learn the fundamentals.

Adapt them to your personality and then just work your butt off because, that sounds these are very basic tenets that I live by, but the difference between you and your competitor often is not who’s smarter than the other, who’s, better than the other, it’s who outworks the other person.

Ketan Gajjar: And then I live by that quote, actually, that, that’s one quote by Henry Ford I’ve been following that the competitor you should fear is the one who puts his head down without worrying about, anybody else. And then you obviously really work. So let me just tell you, it’s an amazing quote.

It’s actually my pinned tweet on Twitter. I love that. It’s the competitor to be feared is one who never bothers about you at all, but goes on making his own business better all the time. 

John Ruffini: Love that. And it’s so true. You, as you should be always be in competition with yourself first, get a little bit better each day.

And if you do that, then you don’t worry about the competition. It’s not Oh, I’ve got it. Cause if I’m so focused on you, then I’m less focused on me. I’m more consumed with how you’re doing, then am I getting better? Always try and get a little bit better each day and learn, don’t be afraid to fail either.

That’s the only way we learn. 

Ketan Gajjar: And that’s exactly, the part of planning and process that, when you’re planning, you don’t block the time to worry about your competitor. If you want to, you probably block five minutes. That’s 

John Ruffini: a great, that’s a great point. Now I might research some of my competitors, but but I’m not going to spend time, worrying about them, but it’s good if you’re in a market where.

I I used to recruit in local spaces because I was in accounting and finance and it, so we met all of our candidates in person and I would go to networking events where there would be other recruiters. And I’d meet my competitors. I thought it was good to get to know them and see what they did and how they work together and what they did and how I might be able to learn from them.

A lot of people with LinkedIn, when, they’re always saying, should I make my network private so that other recruiters don’t steal my contacts? And I was never worried about that. I’m like, if someone steals a relationship from me, that’s my fault, not. There’s, I’ll build a strong enough relationship where I’m not worried about that.

Ketan Gajjar: True. And then again so that’s the part of the process, isn’t it? Relationship building, how strong is your relationship with your clients and candidates? 

John Ruffini: Okay, Tom, that’s our whole business, right? We’re recruiting as a relationship business. At least that’s how I look at it.

And it’s not just for the person I placed today. I want to place that person in their next four jobs. So I want to build that relationship so that they continue to look to me, not just as a person that has access to great jobs, but someone who’s a resource within the talent community. Someone that can provide me information about the job market, the climate, what’s good, what’s not, what companies are hiring, what companies are not hiring.

That’s where you can really deepen the relationship. That first placement is just the beginning. That should be the start of your relationship. And you need to always continue to try and earn that respect from your candidates and do things that add value. So those candidates so that they come back to you and they refer their colleagues to you.

Ketan Gajjar: And that only happens when you have conversations, isn’t it? Not interview people. 

John Ruffini: I love the way you brought that back to the conversation. And so it’s true. It’s true. You’ve got to be, you’ve got to be a real person and [00:24:00] You’ve got to treat them like a person. Don’t treat them like a piece of meat or a placement or a candidate.

They’re a person. So get to know them first and then worry about recommending jobs. If you have a conversation and you get to know what’s important to a candidate and then you come back and say, okay, based on what you’ve told me, I want to tell you about a couple opportunities that would benefit your career.

It’s based on what they wanted It’s not I have this job and i’m hoping you’ll like it So it’s a totally different equation and it surprises me That the majority of recruiters do not do that. So it’s easy to differentiate yourself 

Ketan Gajjar: and you know Again, it goes back to you know who you’re working with, you know from the process perspective Following those fundamentals because you know if you’re trained To just have a transactional relationship Then you’re never going to have conversations with your candidates or clients.

No, you’re always going to look at them as currency that, Oh, I’ve got this [00:25:00] candidate, I’ve got to place them and I’m going to make a fee out of it. Of course you will make a fee out of it, but you will make more fees in the future if you have conversations rather than just look at them.

As a one time transaction. 

John Ruffini: Couldn’t agree more. 100 percent right. 

Ketan Gajjar: So anything else, John, you’d want to, share from the planning and process perspective for our listeners? 

John Ruffini: We’ve covered a lot of good basis and you could talk about planning till we’re blue in the face. Again, everybody’s going to have a different way to plan.

And some of them do it, and find a tool that works for you, find a method that works for you. And. As your life gets busier and different, don’t be afraid to change that tool. Okay. I used to be very much of handheld. I needed to see my plan. So I had a day timer, a planner and I’d write it down in there.

And then several years back, I was like, okay, I used to keep it on outlook, but I’d also have it in my day timer because I had [00:26:00] to see it and I never wanted to be without that. And I said, you know what? I’m going to ditch the paper and I’m going to go complete look electronic. And it’s worked out really well for me.

Don’t be afraid to change and adapt and learn from others. I’ve in our industry, that’s how everybody grows is we learn from what other people do and people will share their best practices. It amazes me how willing people are to help each other get better. Learn from folks, be inquisitive, be real inquisitive as a recruiter, always be curious and always be asking questions so that you can figure out, I’d want to go to the successful recruiters in my company, in my market and say, how do you plan and learn from them?

How do you control your day? And then go to someone who’s like mid level. How do you plan your day? And then go to someone who might be in it for six months. Okay. How do you plan your day? Figure out how they do it because you’ll learn some great practices that you can adapt. Now, if you’re already a really good planner, don’t change.

But in this industry, there’s so [00:27:00] much going on that You’re bound to get disorganized if you don’t have a plan. 

Ketan Gajjar: Very true. Very true And then john obviously i’d like you to talk something about your book money makers, you know 

John Ruffini: this book 

Ketan Gajjar: Absolutely that one. 

John Ruffini: So money makers when I talk about My passion for the fundamentals of recruiting.

That’s what moneymakers is all about. It, in the book are what I consider 52 fundamental practices to be successful in recruiting. And I chose 52 because I figured, okay, they’re 52 weeks in a year. And you can work on one moneymaker each week of the year, rather than trying to take the whole book and digest it and apply everything at once, because that never works.

So you read a chapter, you say, great, there’s one. Let me focus on that for this week. Once I’m comfortable with that, let me go to the next chapter. Okay. Now I’m going to integrate that. And if you do that, you will get a really good grounding foundation in the fundamentals of the business from [00:28:00] which you can grow on.

So that’s the whole premise behind the book. And I’ve been real happy with it and people seem to be happy with it as well. So that’s very gratifying. 

Ketan Gajjar: That’s how I found you, in the first staffing summit, you were a speaker there and I said, I got to talk to John. 

John Ruffini: That’s right.

That’s where we first met. 

Ketan Gajjar: Absolutely. Absolutely. And then yeah, we wrote it’s amazing. And you mentioned about, reaching out to experienced folks in the industry to help. And, that’s exactly what I’ve done. I reached out to you asking for a favor to come on the podcast and you happily applied, obliged, 

John Ruffini: actually.

That’s what it’s all about, it’s, again, we’ve developed a relationship with each other. Do we talk every day now, but we’ve communicated and we’ve stayed in touch since that first time we met and we have the opportunity when we bump into each other at conferences, it’s great.

But other than that, the beauty of technology allows us to stay in touch with one another and track each other. Cool. That’s what I love about this business is you can develop relationships with folks and maintain them. But you have to be willing to do that. And you of course [00:29:00] have been.

Ketan Gajjar: Thank you. Thanks for that. And then can’t agree more. It’s a relationship business at the end of the day. Can’t be transactional unless you want to just be in it for probably a couple of years and then just move on 

John Ruffini: Which we’re not 

Ketan Gajjar: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. So so john, it’s been an honor once again, to host you on the recruitment curry You know as a guest and look forward to more insights.

I love the plan your day Hashtag that you have and then work your plan totally agree with it. Big fan. And then I do recommend that to my team. But thanks once again from the recruitment curry India, it’s 11, the name of the 

John Ruffini: podcast makes me hungry. 

Ketan Gajjar: Do you like curry?

Do you like curry? I 

John Ruffini: do. If it’s not too spicy. My wife loves very hot curry. She loves Indian food. I like it, but not real spicy. 

Ketan Gajjar: Now, with the globalization, the curry is no longer, it’s either too spicy or it’s either totally blend. 

John Ruffini: I’ll take the totally blend

My [00:30:00] wife will take the spicy, I’ll take the bland . 

Ketan Gajjar: No, I know. Which is why I came up with the name, the recruitment curry, because. It’s got to be a blend of all the spices, to make it work. Otherwise, it’s not going to taste good. It’s a great analogy. I love it.

Thank you. Thank you, John. Once again. And then obviously look forward to catching up on LinkedIn and, on, on your messages and posts and the Stuffing Shark, podcast as well. 

John Ruffini: Thanks so much for having me. It’s great to see you and great to talk with you. 

Ketan Gajjar: Thanks, John.

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