Career In The Recruitment Industry – The Recruitment Curry With Gavin Johnston

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Career in the recruitment industry

Here is the first episode of The Recruitment Curry podcast conversion between our director Ketan Gajjar & Gavin Johnston on “Career In The Recruitment Industry”.

Ketan Gajjar:- Hi there Namaste Kem chho? Yeah, this is Ketan Gajjar your host from the very apnu Ahmedabad in India welcome to recruitment curry Gavin our guest today an accomplished recruiting professional with over 16 years of experience in the recruiting industry. Gavin over to you.

Gavin Johnston:-Well hi there Ketan it’s an afternoon for you but still mourning for me so hi everybody.

Ketan Gajjar:-Hi Gavin but thanks thank for you know, joining us on the podcast today and then Gavin you know, obviously if you don’t mind you know a brief introduction because you know you had an extension in the recruiting industry. So you know an introduction to our guest or you know our listeners will be of great help.

Gavin Johnston:- Yup, so I started recruitment in 2004 I did agency recruitment for many years in agencies until 2014 I don’t want to just try something else. And I thought I would put myself as a freelance in-house recruiter completely different kind of approach to recruitment very interesting but then I also had loads of old clients coming back to me saying hey yeah, we still need you and so I combined both in-house. And my own recruitment agency for quite a while and then I thought I actually have got quite a broad experience I see a lot of people struggling. So why not help people and share the knowledge I’ve got and so since last year I have had my own training and recruitment business specifically aimed at the core things about recruitment like how you launch your recruitment company. How do you do? recruitment in a good way so that you can be successful. And in parallel, I’ve still got my one-man agency running on the side.

Ketan Gajjar:- Of course. Of course. So so you being there you know to do that you know and both the sides of the table you know in-house and agency as well and which is precise. You know our part of the discussion where you know you see you know I was looking up you know LinkedIn this morning and then just in the last month there are about 15000 jobs ah, recruiters just in the UK now you know even if you consider you know 50% of them as actual jobs there just aren’t enough recruiters you know everywhere you know you don’t have thousands of recruiters and which is where you know there’s new talent coming in the industry. There are new. You know personnel you know wanting to explore working in the recruiting sector and then you know what we want to talk about today is from your experience. They’re okay, fine. How is ah you know developing a career in the recruiting industry? You know so you know again, you know going back to your 1618 years of experience in the industry. How do you think you know, ah you know if. If somebody wants to really look long-term. Ah, what are your thoughts?

Gavin Johnston:- Well, I would say that um I’ll say it to the roller coaster. Um, you know recruitment is I find recruitment fantastic because you do so many different types of activities when you’re Recruiting. It’s a very very full job you’re dealing with people. You’re helping people find jobs you’re helping people find sometimes very crucial people in their Organizations. You’re also dealing with the sales aspects of things you’re dealing with. The human aspects of things you’re dealing with because it’s a very competitive Industry. You’re dealing with your own ability to be structured and organized. I think one important thing to the people who are listening to this and who think I’m going to start in recruitment. I would say 2 things I would say one. It’s a very difficult job. Don’t think you can just dive in there and it’s going to be easy. Be ready to really have some very difficult months at the beginning where you’re going to learn.

Ketan Gajjar:-Um, yeah.

Gavin Johnston:-Tricks of the trade on the other hand. It’s an unbelievably rewarding career both on the um, the personal fulfilment level and of course, financially can be very interesting. Also. I do want to say though I am talking about agency recruitment. Um, I think in-house recruitment is ah, first of all, it’s a very different kind of job. Um, you do have the aspects of helping people of finding the crucial people for the organization that stays. But.

Ketan Gajjar:-Um, yeah.

Gavin Johnston:-Um, you don’t have those crazy commissions that you get in in the agencies.

Ketan Gajjar:-So in in-house. So it obviously you mentioned about you know it being difficult. Obviously so is it for somebody who is fainthearted. You know rejection handling is 1 of the most important traits you would say in the recording job.

Gavin Johnston:-So I would say one you’ve got to not only be able to take no but you get able to give a no to the candidates and say sorry we didn’t select you so that’s 1 aspect and the second aspect is.

Ketan Gajjar:-Um, you think.Sure.

Gavin Johnston:-Actually I’m going to tell you a little story to highlight this I um, one of my competitors I heard that one of my competitors had got into an account. This was a very big company in Paris and I thought oh I’ve got to get in there. And they had 6 people placed working there as freelance contractors and I was like this is not acceptable I need to be in on the deal I got a hold of the hiring manager on his phone on the hundred and sixth. Paul and okay I managed to get the people in there afterwards but this is the whole thing.

Ketan Gajjar:-Um, so sorry I didn’t interrupt you what was the number? Do you say hundred and sixth call all right? So you know you obviously know you pursued and then you know so and then yeah, so.

Gavin Johnston:-Yeah, and that that’s what I think listeners I’ve got to listen to this you know because 106 calls most people would give up after 2 but you’ve got to keep on going on and on and on you’ve got to have ah a terrible terrible hunger and a drive.

Ketan Gajjar:-War on that you know obviously yeah.

Gavin Johnston:-And if you do that You can be very successful.

Ketan Gajjar:-So hunger and drive are 2 you know, very important traits you know to thrive in you know agency recruiting you know specifically and then you know the question that is often asked now is you know I am an introvert you know how? How will you know?

Gavin Johnston:-Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ketan Gajjar:-Perform or how will you know to deliver in the recruiting industry because I’m not used to you know, opening up and talking to a lot of people so is recruiting a good career for somebody who’s an introvert?

Gavin Johnston:-Well, firstly, let me just say Kaden that you seem to be doing very well for an introvert you’re you’re managing this perfectly. You know, but what I would say is recruitment. It’s not about whether you’re an introvert or not It’s about whether you’re following the right process whether you have the right approach and you diligently follow it through if you have that process you do it and you’re resilient and you know you put a little bit of humour in you put a little bit of dedication in. You put a few hours in you’ll make it There’s no reason not to and the reason why it works for everybody is that if you’ve got the right approach to the right methodology you’re bringing an invaluable solution. You said so yourself. There are so many vacancies for recruiters. We’ve got a very important role in the business world and so for me just about anybody can do it. You’ve got to have you got to be polite. You’re going to be patient. You’ve got to take the time to build the relationships because it is about relationship building.

Ketan Gajjar:-Yeah.

Gavin Johnston:-You can’t just go out and say I call him twice or I sent him an email That’s not going to work.

Ketan Gajjar:-It’s not a plug and play in short, you know, obviously then and you know it’s all about the process like you said you know and then you know process building relationships and that you know that’s where you know a lot of your posts you know on the Facebook groups. You know if I see they talk about you know, a very structured process that’s okay fine. You do. 1 2 3 4 and 5 and then you’ll keep doing it to make sure you get traction. Otherwise, you know you know and then this is where you know so again, there was a post yesterday somebody you know mentioned that okay fine. You know you in fact, on Twitter you know this one of the leading influencers now you know he tweeted about. Ah. The alignment of you knows the recruiting agencies and you know the internal task and you know there’s still this plug and play approach that lot of you know companies have towards recruiters and you know if the recruitment consultant doesn’t have a process driven approach. Ah you know it’s like hunting in the dark.

Gavin Johnston:-Yeah, yeah, absolutely you know the sorry I think the interesting thing is to see there. There are many different kinds of processes. Yeah.

Ketan Gajjar:-Isn’t it? Yeah.

Gavin Johnston:-And I think each person needs to find the process that really really works for them. So, for example, I was talking to a recruitment company last week everything they do is about a projection of their image online so they don’t send it. Cold emails. They don’t do cold calling. They have this very defined approach online on Linkedin and on their website through mailings about bringing value. It’s not my way of working but it works for them and I think each recruiter should have a look at it.

Ketan Gajjar:-Yeah.

Gavin Johnston:-What is the right process for me and then really go for it that’s the interesting thing I think you know there are many types of characters out there amongst us humans. Um, we can all be good recruiters. We just need to find the agency method.

Ketan Gajjar:-Of course so so following a process so you know again to be a good recruiter. You know you have to have a certain discipline. They’re like fine I’m going to follow this process and if you don’t have the ability to follow the process. You know you are destined to become you know, very.

Gavin Johnston:-That works for us.

Ketan Gajjar:-Craft recruiter. What do you say?

Gavin Johnston:-Well I’ll tell you what you’re going to get very frustrated. You know you know what the problem is that to be a really great recruiter. It’s all about getting dozens and dozens and dozens of little things that all work together and they’re all done very well. Throughout the process from the moment that you got let’s say a requirement on the moment that the person is placed and the actually starts a bit before and it finishes a bit later and every single one of these steps needs to be done very very well if you do not follow the process or if you do not have attention to detail. Well, things that are going to start crumbling apart and that can become very painful I mean an example that we’ve got all now is ghosting. Yeah, candidates have got so many opportunities There’s so much choice out there.

Ketan Gajjar:- Yeah.

Gavin Johnston:- They don’t have to just wait for you to give them feedback if you’re not gonna talk to them for ten days don’t expect them to be waiting for you and so if you miss that little thing of oh I’m going to make that extra effort of sending an update email making sure that the person knows.

Ketan Gajjar:-Um, enough.

Gavin Johnston:-Calling them to see if they’re still available. They’re still motivated if they’ve got anything else on the go If you don’t do that. Well, don’t expect to have much success.

Ketan Gajjar:-Totally totally. So you know from a newbie recruiter perspective or ah, a rookie recruiter perspective you know and then obviously so for example, you know, somebody walks in and then says okay I want to be a recruiter and I knew there were all the traits you know like you said you know Hunger drive you know persistence. Where do you suggest they start you know irrespective of the industry? You know so let’s say know if they’re they’re going to be working in the manufacturing variety or commercial where is the starting point you know should they be starting to learn more about the industry or the starting point should know learning about the recruiting process? What do you? suggest.

Gavin Johnston:-Okay, so my so I mean this is silly what I’m gonna say because ah I sell training to train these people but I’m actually going to say something against my own shop I’m Goingnna say in an ideal world go and work in an agency for twelve to eighteen months however and this is a very important thing make sure that that agency has got a very good training system in place. Let’s say the first 2 3 4 weeks and then even more important that they’re going to coach you until you know how to recruit.

Gavin Johnston:-Now where’s the problem? The problem is there aren’t that many of these kinds of agencies around which of course also one of the reasons why I made the course but you see if you’re doing it with an agency. You do not want to do it remotely. You want to sit beside somebody who’s got loads of experience.

Ketan Gajjar:-Yeah, yeah.

Gavin Johnston:-And you can listen in to their calls. You can see what they write. They can do the same thing with you and you’re gonna learn by osmosis. It’s the fastest way of learning if you can’t get that then make sure that you follow training.

Ketan Gajjar:-Right.

Gavin Johnston:-With a methodology that works for you and so it’s ah, there’s a very easy approach. You go onto Facebook and you type recruitment to recruiting in groups and there are thirty forty fifty groups that appear to spend a month month and a half going through them all. You’ll get rid of 60% and you’ll be left with in my case I think it’s twelve fifteen that I really find interesting there and then you listen to what people are saying about recruitment methodology and then you decide. What’s best for me? Do you like picking up the phone? Yes, or no to build that relationship. Do you prefer to not pick up the phone and want to work by email or maybe buy Whatsapp messages or WhatsApp messages or do you want to create a brand image online? Do you want to outsource?

Ketan Gajjar:-Yeah.

Gavin Johnston:-Sourcing and you only deal with a client on the contrary. Do you only want to do sourcing and you get a key account manager that deals with your clients you somebody who’s starting really need to identify these things and then once that is done. We come back to what you were just saying. Then it’s about drive dedication but also patience you know actually Kaden you know what I’m in the middle right now of writing a new training hopefully with a bit of luck be finished and ready. Out there published by the end of May it’s all about launching your own recruitment business. So it’s gonna be the first six months of a recruitment business. What do you need to do and most of that course is actually before you start all you know that thing about getting ready.

Ketan Gajjar:- Um, phenomenal. The time of its Grand allegiance.

Gavin Johnston:- Planning makes sure that it’s going to be set up for success.

Ketan Gajjar:- Looking forward to Gavin Absolutely and you know I’ll also share the link you know of your you know obviously but your Linkedin profile actually so if somebody wants to you know, connect with you. They can do that so you know.

Gavin Johnston:- Excellent.

Ketan Gajjar:- For Newbies you know 1 is you know, identify an agency that that has a good training program if not, you know, identify an agency who’s got you know turned recruiters who are really hands-on shadow them and then learn through obviously shadowing and obviously you know understanding what they do and replicating the methods of success. And 3 is in terms of self-study you know, go to the group’s growth. You know, go to Youtube identity you know the best trainers coaches like yourself and then you know try and you know understand you know what? what are the steps to being a successful recruiter then you know?

Gavin Johnston:- Absolutely yeah and and and 1 important thing I just wanted to up to you there? sorry but there’s 1 important thing is that I’m still amazed that some recruiters do not work in a niche. You absolutely have to work a niche. It’s crucial. It is going to have such an enormous impact um choose a small niche. Most people say I need thousands of requirements and I’m going like how many are you going to work on I go wouldn’t you go for a thousand or all the. Requirements in the world and have one point two million or whatever how many million there are requirements. It makes no difference. You should work on I work on a maximum of 4 at the same time and so people need to think small they need to think very very small get that niche sorted out. And then you can grow. So for example, you know if you take like if you take. For example, if you take India you can’t say India’s my market India’s a hundred market. You know you probably can’t even sell any one city in a market because it’s so big. You know.

Ketan Gajjar:- Um, yeah, ah that the to. Yeah yeah.

Gavin Johnston:- You got to go really really really small I was talking to somebody. Um, who’d start and he goes I’m struggling. Um I don’t know whether this is my niche or that is money she was 2 different kinds of profiles and I go so why are you hesitating and he said well here. 17000 open vacancies here. There are 9000 open vacancies I might open vacancies where he goes to the United States I go okay where’d you live? He goes New York City yeah I’m okay take Manhattan and forget all the rest and he looked to me going. What.

Ketan Gajjar:- Yep.

Gavin Johnston:- How many requirements are there in Manhattan there was something like nearly 50 might said they even ask too much. You know make it very small but controlled. Ah, I always say to everybody you want to be the number 1 recruiter in the world. In your niche.

Ketan Gajjar:- In wide mile leap is what I have sort of you know, absorbed from the Uk recruit industry because you know obviously majority or you know a large number of agencies are boutique. You know, small size mid-size and then you know most of them which I know you know you know specialize and you know they thrive. And then you’re talking about us you know and when you’re talking so in my career you know I built you know you know teams for the Uk and us as well and even from an outsourcing perspective. You know people say okay fine. You know I want to work for every state in us now you cannot wallpaper the world now you know. That’s what you know, tell the sales and then business developers and enter the recruiters because you know we’re not Google you know nobody has those amount of resources to deploy. You know, be it. You know technology beats manpower to beat anything. You know you can’t humanly cater to that worldwide market and you know which is where you know. For new recruiters and then even when we started so you know when I started our business. You know our arena back in 2020 our niche was you know health care. You know that is where we started. Okay, fine. You know that’s the industry. Do you know those? you know that’s the people that’s available in the market from the demand perspective as well and then let’s go for that and then you know once we. Develop that set business and then you know we can go and develop other virtues because you know doing everything you end up doing nothing.

Gavin Johnston:- Exactly exactly exactly yeah you know the first agency I worked for. We had 1 niche and each time we got a new recruiter. We just controlled that niche a bit more and we just extended the geographical area. We didn’t change niche.

Ketan Gajjar:- Um, yeah, sure so so for new recruiters again, you know obviously don’t try to do everything you know at 1 point in time they’re okay fine I also want to you know work jobs you know which are it manufacture ring just you know focus on 1 specific thing.

Gavin Johnston:- And it worked fantastically. You know.

Ketan Gajjar:- 1 specific sector you know, develop your expertise in that sector learn and end. Then obviously you know talk to candidates.

Gavin Johnston:- Um, I mean even the down down down down there. You know I ah my last financial year I made $200000 in the year I work less than half a day a week

Ketan Gajjar:- Did it.

Gavin Johnston:- Didn’t do any business development because it’s my old clients coming to me and I’ve got 217 candidates that’s it a half a day No half a day a week. Yeah.

Ketan Gajjar:- Wow and you worked half a year literally technical tough day a week yeah wow that’s phenomenal yeah

Gavin Johnston:- So and that works you know.

Ketan Gajjar:- And you know that that is down to your you know years of experience. You know you spent that time you know building relationships you know again going back to the first phone that you mentioned they’re okay fine. You know drive hunger and you know patience is what you need because you know nobody’s going to. Ah you know there are times when you know people tell yes on the first call. But.

Gavin Johnston:- Of course.

Ketan Gajjar:- It’s seldom. It’s not on every call. Ah, ah, absolutely and that’s a trick and you know about new recruiters that you know that getting frustrated is it is okay, you know if you’re still getting frustrated but then you know you have to get back up and you know keep going because.

Gavin Johnston:- It’s very very rare I wish it happen more often. But ah.

Ketan Gajjar:- If you don’t then you know you lost it before you started isn’t it?

Gavin Johnston:- Yeah, you know it’s interesting I was talking to somebody who um so she had in-house recruitment experience. She knew how to do the interviews. She knew how to do the sourcing. Um, but she was going solo. And I was done to her and she said yeah I’ve been doing this for ten days and I still don’t have anything on the client side I’m like ten days I said you count six months you know and she goes six months I go if you say six months and you realize that you can do it before.

Ketan Gajjar:- Yeah.

Gavin Johnston:- Good for you. But if you say two months and it takes you three months you’re going to be so frustrated in this period here. You know so say six months take it easy really map your market. Well, go in there. Make sure you got enough money aside that you can survive six months but you launch yourself? Do it. Don’t be stressed. Don’t get a burnout but do it well to build up your reputation on the market and bring value to the market. Make sure that peoples want to talk to you both on the Canadian and the client side and if you can do that. Well, the first six months will seem very long the next six months will seem much easier and on and on and on and it will just become easier and easier and easier. Absolutely absolutely. Yeah.

Ketan Gajjar:- It is the principle of compounding isn’t you know you have to invest that time you know it’s going to take the time you know, whatever time it’s going to take you to know for some it might take you to know four months but for some, it’s six months but you know you can’t run before you walk.

Gavin Johnston:- Correct.

Ketan Gajjar:- And and 1 advice in my career. You know when I started recruiting was that you know talk to as many candidates as possible. You know, but and then when I say talk to you know? Obviously, it was over email messages and phone calls. But you know keep that momentum going because if you don’t then you know you’re not going to learn anything you know because. Candidates you know are the second best source of learning you know about the industry. Yeah.

Gavin Johnston:- Absolutely for me they the best source they’re the best source because they’re the first people that are interested. So if you talk if you pick out your phone and talk to a candidate and you say you know. Because this is something that I hear a lot. Ah, new Recruiter saying? Yeah, but they’re going to think that I’m a fraud because I don’t know anything say so say look I’m just starting off I have requirements but I do want to learn more about your side of the business. Can you please explain to me exactly what you do?

Ketan Gajjar:- Yeah, and you know that is after you know obviously they’re prepared at least some basic because you know I would be really dumbfounded if I just called a candidate without knowing anything about the role and so so what one 1 thing if industry specifics. Yeah.

Gavin Johnston:-Um, oh Theronia Theolia but I’m talking about the technology that may be behind it. You know whether it’s engineering or manufacturing or anything. But for example, you know I Um it’s.

Ketan Gajjar:- Of course.

Gavin Johnston:- It’s Amazing. What percentage of people are willing to talk about what they do not once I have a problem not once you talking to these candidates and actually not only do you gain knowledge but they respect you for listening. And when you’re building that relationship over time they’re going to go. Oh yeah, but he’s the recruiter who really listened to Me. He’s the recruiter who really made that effort to understand what I do and you stand out compared to the competition. You know.

Ketan Gajjar:- Absolutely absolutely so where do you think you know ah recruit a newbie is again in the recruiting? So some of you know somebody who’s got no understanding of the recruiting process should they start as a Sourcer. Ah, you know in their career or you know should they sort of go into you know one hundred and eighty degrees recruiting or you know again, you know. 60 and you know depending on you know that their traits but from your perspective you know because you’ve been mentoring coaching and you know training new recruiters as well. Where do you believe that you know most should start you know so that they can excel you know, probably in the next twelve months

Gavin Johnston:- Yeah, So first of all, let me say that there isn’t a fixed timeline. Everybody will learn at a different pace so you need to adapt your training from my point of view or from a manager’s point of View. You need to adapt it to the individual. And it’s not always because somebody’s a bit slower that they won’t get there. They might even turn out to be better later on. But yeah I’m with you I say start with sourcing you know candidates don’t like us saying this but at the end of the day. Um, the candidates are our product.

Ketan Gajjar:- Correct. Yeah.

Gavin Johnston:- If you go um work as a salesperson in any industry in the world and I always talk about Coca-cola. Yeah, if you got a new salesperson from Coca-cola do they first go to the shop where they’re selling the Coca-cola or do they first go to the factory to find out all about their Coca-cola?

Ketan Gajjar:- Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah.

Gavin Johnston:- They go from the factory of course they find out about their product. They learn about their product and only then do they go to the client and of course, we’re dealing with a product that is a million times more complex than a can of coke you know and so what I always say is the source.

Ketan Gajjar:- The market. Yeah, yes.

Gavin Johnston:- Source source get to know your candidates understand your candidates and what you do is during your office hours and sometimes early evening you spend your time getting to know your candidates in the evening or maybe quickly during your so your lunch break whilst you’re having a quick snack. You’re online reading up about the industry about things that are important in your industry changes happening and things like that and you do this sourcing for what it can be two weeks three weeks four weeks five weeks depending on the person. And then slowly as slowly you start increasing the level of difficulty and so, in the beginning, it’s just introducing yourself getting to know the person and asking for an up-to-date cv and in the end, it’s going to be about getting leads off that person.

Ketan Gajjar:- Yeah.

Gavin Johnston:- Getting referrals off that person and you know you’re really, you’re moving up and then when you’re moving up you start combining. Ah well, you come and also do certain aspects on the sales side until, in the end, the aim is.

Ketan Gajjar:- Um, yep.

Gavin Johnston:- You’re doing 3 60 or you’re capable of doing three sixty degrees recruitment. You know.

Ketan Gajjar:- Um, but it’s obviously going to have a certain learning curve because you know you’re going to start with you know, learning how to source you know how to you know identify if the candidates are relevant or series are relevant to you know obviously the job then the next step is you know, reaching out to them. Just as to you know, have a brief chat about you know the current status you of if they’re looking for new jobs prequalifying them the basic prequalification and then you know moving from there on to like you said you know leads and referrals which is a slightly advanced stage and then depending on their personality and you know their drive. You know we’ll Decide. You know how soon they get there. So You know it’s it sounds easy and you know again, you know, but going back to some of the graphics that I made as well. So for a lot of people you know recruiting is you know you got a client you got a candidate you find some you know candidates you match them and there you go. You know you place them. You know.

Gavin Johnston:-If only if only.

Ketan Gajjar:- Ah, if only so that that brings me to you know, obviously 1 of the most important points for you know, a lot of people is how rewarding you know is the career in recruiting. Yeah, and you know you covered slightly on and on your part, you know where you spend you know. Half day working you know per week and then obviously you were still able to you know generate a good amount of cash there. Ah, of course, it takes time but what would you say for people you know getting into recruiting yes I want to make a lot of money you know and that’s the drive I have.

Gavin Johnston:- Do it. It’s probably the easiest let me put let me say differently I would say if you look at all of the different careers that one can have for recruitment. You don’t need any degrees. You don’t need any education.

Ketan Gajjar:- What would you do? you tell them.

Gavin Johnston:- You can go right in there and you can make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year if you do it right? ah.

Ketan Gajjar:- Yeah, is it a 9 to 5 you know the second best question that that that I see and again you know a lot of people propagate that okay fine. You know, obviously, no work-life balance is important for everybody but is there a 9 to 5 Job you know if you want? Make a lot of money in recruiting. They’re okay fine I’m going to switch off my phone after you know I’m you know after 5 and then I’ll check my emails only the next morning.

Gavin Johnston:- Ah, yes, but only after about 3 years the first three years you want to invest invest invest all the time possible into getting yourself out there.

Ketan Gajjar:- Right.

Gavin Johnston:- And becoming number 1 in the world in your niche once you’ve achieved that status then you can start relaxing but it’s also you know the interesting thing about recruitment is that um and I’m gonna tell you a story again I once had a situation where.

Ketan Gajjar:-Of course.

Gavin Johnston:- It was very very very very busy and I was like I’m drowning I need help and there wasn’t any help available because we didn’t have anybody to help we were all going. Well well whoa Whoa Whoa and I started thinking Well I’m spending too much time doing admin.

Ketan Gajjar:- Yeah.

Gavin Johnston:- And so what I did is I made a big excel sheet and I split the whole week up into 15-minute slots and if we each 15 minutes I noted down what I was doing I did that for the whole week and then I analyze it and I and I sort of realized I’m not being productive here.

Ketan Gajjar:- Right.

Gavin Johnston:- I’m losing a lot of time doing admin in a way that is not efficient. Yeah, and so I change certain ways of working. Um, you’ve got to put yourself in question, you’ve got to reevaluate yourself on a regular basis and if you can be really productive.

Ketan Gajjar:- Yeah.

Gavin Johnston:- Then you can start saying yes I want to have my I don’t know my 40-hour week but it will take a few years before you get there. maybe 3 you know if if you’re very very efficient if you’re very good at what you’re doing and if you are I would say ruthless.

Ketan Gajjar:- Yep.

Gavin Johnston:- Because it’s all about not being distracted. There are so many distractions around us, right? Oh, that’s the whole difficult bid if you can stay really down there focused on what you need to do I had a boss who used to say to me said, um.

Ketan Gajjar:- Focus isn’t it that that’s that that’s the thing you know because you know.

Gavin Johnston:- You got to ask yourself thirty forty fifty times a day is what you’re doing right now going to bring the money in and often the answer is no well then focus on something that will do this you know and that’s the trick if you can be ruthless.

Ketan Gajjar:- Um, yeah.

Gavin Johnston:- Focused then yeah you can get a work-life balance after a yeah I’ll say about 3 years

Ketan Gajjar:- Totally totally and obviously spending time learning about the trade because you know it is a never-ending game isn’t it? You know there’s always something New. You know in the industry you’re working with you know in and then you know talking to the candidates is is is sort of a priority of course you know managing the clients and then that comes. Much later, but for a new you know, new me in the Recruiting Industry. You know, obviously, you know sourcing to start with talking as much as possible to the candidates mimicking some of the top performers from the agency. You know these are the top 3 things that that you know everybody you know, know who’s new in the industry should sort of. You know, pick up and get going and then of course you know have the ability to you know handle rejections like you said you know saying you know, listening to no and you know saying no you know.

Gavin Johnston:- Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know? Okay, I think that in the first bunch of weeks you want to spend 90 or maybe 95% of your time on the candidate side.

Ketan Gajjar:- Um, yeah.

Gavin Johnston:- And then yes when you start getting to the first CVs in you start mapping the clients that you see on the CVs but spend not too much time on this I would say the first 6 to eight weeks spend at least 80 % of your time on the candidate side. Um. 1 of the targets that I had and I’ve had and work fantastically is in your market. You want to know personally at least 95 % of all the candidates in the market now. You don’t do that in six months that will maybe take a year and a half for 2 years but that’s your target 95% of your market. That’s why also you can’t have a huge market because it’s impossible to remember anything.

Ketan Gajjar:- Mean Yeah, you know looping back to what you said you know in terms of the niche that you need to have because you know if if you’re going to have a niche which is you know a Thousand miles and you know covering you know everything? you’re never going to be able to remember the names of those candidates or even reach out to them. You know.

Gavin Johnston:- Correct.

Ketan Gajjar:- So and that’s why I look at you know if when I look at contracting discs. You know, maybe it or healthcare care the majority of the recruiters would remember you know their top candidates or the candidates that you know that that they have on the desk or that they’ve spoken to six months back and they exactly know you know who’s next available.

Gavin Johnston:- Yeah, absolutely.

Ketan Gajjar:- And you know went to reach out to them and then what? so so you know one thing that that I’ve learned from you know some of the great recruiters from the Uk you know and our clients, as well as they, know. Ah, they have personal profiling of every candidate that’s okay fine. You know what mode of communication my candidate likes and what time they like to be contacted. You know what tone of discussion. Do they like as well and then you know how often they like to be chased so they literally profile they have a profile of a candidate that okay fine. This is exactly what will make them happy working with me.

Gavin Johnston:- Yeah, yeah.Absolutely oh absolutely oh it’s crucial. It’s a question of respect.

Ketan Gajjar:- Totally totally so in terms of you know people. Ah, you know again? Um, you know? Okay, so you know somebody starts recruiting you to know a couple of weeks down the line. You know what? I’m not enjoying this sector. Do you believe that? Okay, jumping sectors would you know makes their careers viable? You know they’re okay, fine have you come across situations like these? They’re okay fine. You know somebody started in recruiting. They were good but then obviously it was like moving seats on the bus. They’re fine. You know you didn’t do well in this sector probably you’ll do. Well in here.

Gavin Johnston:- Um, actually it’s even more complex in that Caden, First of all, I would say that um because recruitment is so tough you need to make sure that you’re having fun. Give a fun twist to it all the time you know don’t say oh good of finding not a candidate. Go Yeah but to find a candidate and you know it’s like ah’s like a game. You know it’s like you’re in you’re like a detective in a film or something. Yeah, give it a nice twist that you enjoy.

Ketan Gajjar:- Yep.

Gavin Johnston:- That’s the first thing. The second thing is that when you choose your niche make sure it’s something you’re interested in For example if you hate anything to do with numbers. Don’t go and hire accountants. You know. But if for example, you’re interested in I know new technology goes into it if you’re interested in business and strategy go into hiring managers or sea-level candidates just make sure that it’s something that you are not going to be bored talking about.

Ketan Gajjar:- Consulting. Yeah yeah. you don’t want to be stressed about it. A.

Gavin Johnston:- Thirty-forty hours a week because that’s the way you go to think about it. Ah, that’s what you’re doing. You’re living in that for the next so many years.

Ketan Gajjar:- Totally totally. So so in terms of summing up. You know for you know, somebody to develop a career in recruiting. You know one is you know obviously or rather you know you need hunger drive patients. You know these are 3 important traits you’d say now in your opinion.

Gavin Johnston:- Yeah, add add add a very important one, sorry we’re over 3 but there’s a very important one which is attention to detail.

Ketan Gajjar:- Of course attention to detail and you know self-learning attitude. You know that that’s something that that you know you need forever and you know I got 2 more questions but before we end but you know 1 is you know what is 1 quote.

Gavin Johnston:- Absolutely.

Ketan Gajjar:- That you live by and that has specifically helped you you know in recruiting.

Gavin Johnston:- Well, there’s one there’s 1 thing that I do live by but it’s not only recruitment. It’s about everything in life and it really has helped me a lot is treated others the way I want to be treated if you take that attitude.

Ketan Gajjar:- Right. Of course and because you know at the end of the day you’re still dealing with humans. You know all across you know, maybe clients Candidates Partners Suppliers Whatever you call and then you know you want to be treated fairly and then that’s how we want to treat others as well and then.

Gavin Johnston:- You’re you’re going to get far. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Ketan Gajjar:- Lastly, how do you enjoy your curry but or do you really love it? love your curry. You are on recruitment curry 9 and year old. You know.

Gavin Johnston:- Oh that’s a dodgy question. We talk about food again I love curries. Ah.

Ketan Gajjar:- That’s how we do not like to sort off you know the end of the podcast you love the curry and obviously you’re based in Belgium isn’t it? So do you have many curry houses there?

Gavin Johnston:- Um, yeah, what you know what? we’re all a bit disappointed because um, there’s a whole group of us who are brits living here in Brussels and we used to have the most amazing curry house and it stopped about. Fourteen fifteen years ago and we haven’t quite found something on the same level and so every sort of 6 to twelve months we sort of try a new place and we’ve now found a nipples place. Believe it or not, this is probably the best that we’ve found for the time being.

Ketan Gajjar:- Yeah. No, definitely. So.

Gavin Johnston:- Yeah, no, there’s not enough. We’re not, We’re not in the U K Unfortunately but we do enjoy our curries. Yeah, definitely. But.

Ketan Gajjar:- Ah, well well I hope you know you get some new curry places and you know the less you know Karrie is also good. You know I’m a vegetarian but you know I’ve had friends. You know I have friends in the UK who go to needles restaurants and you know one of the things that they like is you know Lamp Chops you know in those restaurants I mean maybe you want to give it a try next time and if if you’re you know if if you enjoy meat. Ah, ah, ah so so Gavin if people want to sort of you know ref in any again you know because you are into the recruiting game and you’re training and coaching people.

Gavin Johnston:- I’ll take your advice on that. Ah.

Ketan Gajjar:- If people want to know refer to your content where do they go?

Gavin Johnston:- So 2 places obviously Linkedin so I’m Gavin Johnston:- one on Linkedin and did a place my website which is everything about all in 1 word.

Ketan Gajjar:- Good stuff. So what? what? I’ll do is I’ll Also you know cover that on the transcript and you know ah put it you know under the the the details so that you know people want to refer to your content. They can also you know, go there, you know and you know to get the Golden gets off of your you know recruiting experience and the.

Gavin Johnston:- Great stuff.

Ketan Gajjar:- Lastly I really enjoy your you know obviously thoughts on Facebook groups about recruiting pretty active and love the content there. So keep that coming and ah so Gavin thanks so much for being on the show today and yeah, hope you know.

Gavin Johnston:- Um, thank you. That’s the plan.

Ketan Gajjar:- Ah, do do more of this.

Gavin Johnston:- Well, it’s been very very interesting Kate and thanks a lot for inviting me.

Ketan Gajjar:- It’s a pleasure. Thanks, everybody. Thanks for listening.

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