Personal branding and recruitment

Personal branding and recruitment

The Recruitment Curry with Steve Guest 

Ketan Gajjar: Hi there. Namaste. Kem Cho. This is Ketan Gajjar from the very Apnu Ahmedabad . Welcome to the Recruitment Curry Podcast. Steve. Hi. Morning from Ahmedabad, India. Good morning. How are you? Very good, thank you Steve. Very good. Thank you. Welcome to the recruitment curry. 

Steve Guest: Yeah, I’m looking forward to having a good chat with you.

And thank you for the invite. 

Ketan Gajjar: It’s a pleasure. Steve and obviously. A lot of people know you, at least here in Ahmedabad obviously in the UK, you are very well known, but here as well now given your, traction on the Facebook page and the personal brand influence and then, and the postings regularly, at least in our offices people know Steve guest.

However, A brief introduction will be of great help for our listeners. 

Steve Guest: Yeah. So I’m Steve Guest. I’m based in the West Midlands in the UK. I’ve been in recruiting, recruitment or recruiting for the last 17 years. I have authored two bestselling books. Books. First book was Top Biller the Life of a Recruiter, which was published back in 2019.

And I recently published my second book, a Personal Brand Story. In August of last year, I run a an online virtual recruitment training program called the 12 Week Recruitment Mastery Program. I’ve got a free Facebook book group for recruiters to come in and share ideas and collaborate. And I still actively recruit.

On a day to day basis. I run a recruitment business albeit a relatively small business compared to perhaps some of the companies I’ve worked with in the past. I’ve also got my own podcast called the guest list with Steve guest. I think that probably brings you up to date kate. 

Ketan Gajjar: Absolutely.

Absolutely. Steven and you already authored two books You know the top biller and the personal, personal brand story And then today’s topic as we discussed is, on the lines of how to develop a personal brand in a way, which [00:02:00] sort of is often essence in, in today’s day and world irrespective of who you are, where you are, you still need to be out there on social media on respective networks.

And then we want to hear from you because, one is, you are a personal brand and then two is you’ve already written a book on it. 

Steve Guest: Yeah. Personal brands are a funny one because a lot of people struggle with it. My own belief is it’s the way forward. And I think when you consider the stats, certainly on LinkedIn, I think it’s only five, 5 percent or a figure like that of LinkedIn users that actually post on the platform.

And when you think of that and you’re observing the masses and doing the opposite, and you’re trying to create something different to your competition. Then for me, it’s a no brainer. That’s where you need to be. That’s what you need to be doing. Personal branding for me has been, it’s been a long journey and it’s not easy.

I get the fact that people are quite often scared or worried or nervous about. Putting posts out there. What do I post? Who’s going to be interested in me? What have I got to say that’s going to add any value? Why would anybody be interested in what I’ve got to say and want to follow me? And that’s a lot of the perhaps the hurdles that I speak to consultants about.

And I’m looking forward to getting into more detail with you today. 

Ketan Gajjar: No, definitely. From my experience, I used to be a lurker, as they say, just, keep scrolling through the timelines, be it LinkedIn, be it Twitter, be it Facebook. And there’s a self doubt that, I fell into as well that, okay, fine, if I post something.

What will be the response, the reaction from the crowd, but ultimately, and obviously I dived in and what what tips would you suggest, especially, again, from the recruiter’s perspective who want to develop a personal brand, how should they get on with things?

Steve Guest: I think first and foremost, you have to see personal brand as a journey. It’s not going to happen overnight. It’s not going to happen off the back of one post. You’re not suddenly going to become a viral influencer in recruitment within a couple of days. You’re not necessarily going to get it going to get instant return from putting a few posts out.

It’s a development. It’s a process. My first initial posts, videos and everything in regards to my personal brand journey, when I first started, what, 2015, 2016, didn’t really go anywhere and I’m now six, seven years on now, I’m not saying it can take that long, but it’s been a development over time. And I think the big thing for me is not to put too much onus on any one particular post, not to focus on the fact that today’s post has got no likes, comments, shares.

Or engagement. It’s a process of engaging with your network and building a rapport where people are more willing to comment on your posts, like [00:05:00] it, return the favor help support the fact that you’re trying to build something. A big tip for me when I’m asked what do I post?

How do I know what to post? I can never come up with content. The content’s all around you. And I think it’s about shifting your mindset to think, would that add value? Would that make a good post if I was to put it onto a platform? So in your day to day work, if you’re, Asked questions. If your clients are asking how you work, what makes you different to your competitors?

If your candidates are asking you what the process is, how do you pre qualify a candidate? How do you make sure that you’re going to find me that next role? If it’s about the general market, the market, you specialize in the sectors that you recruit in, it could be sharing information and things that are happening that are of interest to the people that you’re trying to support.

And I’ve tried to build up the fact that it’s a personal journey. As much as it isn’t [00:06:00] advertisement and the potential to pitch what you do. So share the good days, share the bad days, share when you’re, I don’t know, having a day of you’re demotivated or you’re perhaps feeling a bit rejected.

Somebody hasn’t turned up for interview or hasn’t turned up for work. We’re all human. And I suppose this idea dates back to when I first started in recruitment. There was no social media 17 years ago. There was no ability to build a personal brand. Everything that you did to market who you were was either via a phone call or a face to face meeting.

The idea that a social media platform can engage with thousands of people the moment you put a post out allows you to showcase who you are and what you do every time you make a post. And for me, that is so powerful and people don’t necessarily get it because they don’t, I think from a recruitment world, [00:07:00] you don’t see a monetary return the moment you put a post out.

Ketan Gajjar: And I think it’s an interesting point you make monetizing your posts. And which is where a lot of people end their journey in a very short duration, isn’t it? Because they don’t see the returns that, Oh, I’ve been posting this. Now I’m not getting any clients.

I’m not getting any candidates. Let me just stop there. But what I found, in, in my personal journey so far is it’s a feedback. If you’re not getting a lot of responses, then, you got to change something instead of stopping, okay, fine. It’s just not working. I’ll stop posting from today.

What do you suggest, Steve? 

Steve Guest: Yeah I think it’s being aware of what works and what doesn’t. It’s having a review of what you post, how you post it. What are the algorithms doing on that platform at the given time? If you’re following influential people or individuals that really truly spend 24 hours a day mastering the platform, [00:08:00] then you should be looking at what they’re doing.

How are they writing their posts? How are they setting them up? Are they adding videos? Are they adding photos? Are they adding gifts? Gifts? Are they purely just text posts? How do they put the text? How do they align it all? How do they position it? And I think because it’s constantly changing, you’ve got to be, or put out a variety of different types of posts at any given time, any given week, because what I’ve learned over the years is I can spend.

A decent amount of time writing a post. And I think it’s got huge value at perhaps it’s taken a little bit more time than others. And as far as I can see, the post goes nowhere. And then I can put out a random post with a sentence of perhaps me having a rant or something’s happened on that day. Maybe the platform’s not working properly and that post goes crazy.

My biggest post of 2022 had 280, 000 views. I think it was over a thousand comments and so many shares and it was asking who preferred Costro over Starbucks. It’s a completely irrelevant post to my market and you could look at it and think what’s the point of adding that post? Is it just vanity metrics?

Is it just purely about, getting likes and comments. Yeah, in part, yes, it is. But my profile views went through the roof. The number of contacts off the platform through emails, through messages of people recognizing what I do book sales increased, podcast downloads increased because people follow the journey and then they become attached.

And you mentioned it earlier. And we said the same thing in the. If 5 percent of people post, the other 95 percent are watching. So if you’re trying to attract a, an audience where 95 percent of people watch, you’ve got to be posting it in the first place to get noticed. But they say it takes seven to eight touch points to create a business or working relationship.

So potentially that individual needs to see you post at least seven times before they’re comfortable. They’ve got to a point where they know and trust you. where they’re going to make contact and the difficulty or the parts that people don’t see is when you put posts out and you’re consistent with it.

And I get in mails consistently every day and there’ll be messages that will pretty much start off. I’ve been following you for a while. I’ve been seeing your posts for a number of months. We haven’t spoken before, but I’ve been following you for some time. All of these messages start like that. Okay.

And then it might be, we’re after a QS in Birmingham. Can you help? We’re a contractor and we do an X, Y, and Z.  We feel like we need your support. You’re the person we need to speak to because you’re busy. You showcase what you do and you seem to be the person that we need to be speaking to. People don’t see that.

Because it’s almost off the post and therefore because that wouldn’t get put into a comment on a post People don’t see the point of adding the post

Ketan Gajjar: True and any you mentioned that what one one phrase, showcase what you do, you know That sentence actually and then it that’s one point actually, you know A lot of people can create a lot of content around, showcase what you do And then I think you outlined it in, in your book in terms of the structure.

If you can, share that structure Steve, for the listeners, it’s really helpful, at least I found it helpful. I think you need a plan 

Steve Guest: because otherwise the posts become sporadic or you have no, Yeah. thought process behind what you’re trying to do.

So I work to what I call the 70, 20, 10 ratio. So each week I look to post 10 times. The idea is a post once in the morning when people are ideally eating their breakfast, they’re scrolling through the timeline. And then once at lunchtime where hopefully they’re doing the same thing. I split the posts, so the 10 posts to a day into seven posts that are about my business, my sector, my market, what I’m recruiting for, what the opportunities are perhaps what candidates I’m working to try and find roles for.

It’s specific about what I do and what I specialize in. And the majority I 70 percent is about that because that’s what I want most of my network to see most of the time. I then put two posts out a week, which is about me. So the good days, the bad days, the motivated days, the rejected days, perhaps a little bit of family posts what I get up to in my downtime.

where I’ve spent some of my time with my family and my children. Because I want people to have an insight into who is Steve guest. What am I about? What makes me? And I want them to be able to create that personal touch where they feel they can approach me because I’m a normal human that goes through ups and downs.

And then I look to put one poster. out a week that is a trending subject. So something that everybody can engage with and they don’t feel pressure from the fact that they’re connected to a recruiter. So candidates and clients can comment because it’s a post that is not relevant to. world. So it might be how, what color do you have your cup of tea?

Is it a strong brown to a milky white? Is it a Costa or a Starbucks? Is it something that’s trending? So a good post sometime ago is when Tyson Fury did his interview about mental health and the ups and downs that he went through. But there’s always trending posts and trending.

Things that are happening. I try and steer clear of anything political or anything that will offend or, of course perhaps go against certain things. So religion is another good one to avoid. But if you can pick on things where people will have an opinion. Or it divides opinion even better because you’re going to get people engaging in the comments, in the post that helps 

Ketan Gajjar: it goes a little bit further.

Of course. And you get different perspectives as well. It’s not just a one side information shared by the respect, respect to people. 

Steve Guest: And that’s it. And the idea behind a personal brand is to build. A journey where people can associate with you and follow a journey online where you get to a point where they’re quite comfortable contacting you.

And I’ll give you a scenario. So [00:15:00] as part of what we do as recruiters, we go to a lot of networking groups and we’ll be perhaps going to functions or setups where there might be 50, 100 people. Plus people and you walk into a room and this happens on most occasions, certainly within the West Midlands and within construction related groups.

I can walk into a room and people will come and talk to me quite openly, feeling like they’ve known me for years. And I have to actively stop them and ask who they are because I’ve never met them. We’ve never perhaps had a conversation, but because of the power of the personal brand, they’ve followed me for years.

They’ve never made contact, but they feel like they can come up and talk to me as if we’ve known each other for years. And that’s, 

Ketan Gajjar: and then that’s, I think, because, absolutely. And then, I’m really excited on that point because, You know, you share various posts, with your 70, 20, 10 methodology, which, which highlights about the sector you’re into, the business that you’re into and then also sharing, who is Steve as a person, you mentioned about that 10% about, those two posts that go online which I’ve experienced not obviously at the scale that you would have, I post some videos in on and off.

And then there are people who come and talk to me on calls. This is mainly from the prospect’s perspective that, seeing your video looks like, obviously I know you, because I’ve seen some of your posts Listen to, a part of your podcast. And I think when you post something just in text, yes, it’s a post, but then, when you’re narrating something or, or a podcast or, on a video call or even pictures, it says a lot and it translates those Emotions actually, and people can read those.

And then I think I’ve experienced that. And I was excited to share that. And exactly. Builds connection. 

Steve Guest: It builds a connection. If you think, and I keep comparing it to perhaps when I first started in recruitment to build a market, to build a business, to build a connection with a client, pretty much every single time it started with a cold call, which are really difficult.

And I actually really enjoy cold call. You’d class me as an old school recruiter. I’ve got no issues picking up the phone and talking to anyone because it’s how I was trained. It was how I learned. We’re in a position now where yes, cold calls, I would believe are still part of what we should do. But if you’re building a personal brand at the same time and connected with clients, you’ve never spoken to when you either make that call.

It’s warmer because they’ve built an association with you and they already know of you or they’ve seen you or followed you. If it hasn’t gone that way, it could be just very much that you’ve built the personal brand and they’re contacting you. So it removes that element of having to explain all the details of who you are, what makes you different, where you’re calling from, what you do, what markets, what geographical regions you cover, because if you get your social media and your personal branding correct.

They already know anyway, and it’s broken down so many barriers and hurdles to building a relationship with the ship or initiating an initial contact because of the power of putting posts out every day. And totally. And yeah, so I was just going to say the big thing for me is just to remain consistent.

It’s no good doing one post today and then nothing for three weeks. It’s no, for me anyway, it’s no good doing the odd post every week or a couple of posts a week because it doesn’t build enough. And if you think in terms of, I always think, am I doing more and am I more effective than my competition?

So I know if my posts and my face turn up on someone’s timeline twice a day, Monday to Friday, and I’m competing with someone that posts twice a week, I know my audience sees me far more than my competitor. So when they’re sat in their board meeting or they’re sat in their meeting, deciding who they’re going to call because they have a need, The reason I post twice a day, five times a week is because I want to be the first person that comes to mind when people have a need for the market that I recruited and it’s outward marketing.

So whilst all that’s happening, while my posts are generating traffic and turning up on people’s timelines, I’m doing the day job in the background. So it works for me while I’m doing something else, which is about time management and multitasking. Which generally multitasking, I’m not great at, but if I manage the outward part first, I know I can do everything and have focus on the day job.

Ketan Gajjar: Of course. And then, there are tools that are available. You can just schedule your posts so that you don’t have to spend time literally, posting them on a real time basis. 

Steve Guest: And I do a mix of those. The podcast posts generally are scheduled and the other ones are As things happen during the day or their real life situations, that’s when they’re shared.

Ketan Gajjar: Sure. Sure. And then from the leadership perspective especially if it’s a boutique agency and then, the, a founder business, driving a team of, let’s say five to 10 recruiters, would you recommend the owners or the leaders of the agency, working on personal branding, or would you advise on leaving it to the consultants to do their own personal branding?

I think there’s an element of both. 

Steve Guest: I think. Personal branding is vitally important. And as recruiters, we’re always told that we manage our own business. We manage our own desk. We manage our clients and candidates. So we have to have the thought processes. This is a, an extra tool that we can use to, to help grow our business.

The danger, I think, certainly with the bigger the agencies, Everybody has a different idea as to what’s acceptable and what’s not. Where do you draw the line? Is it a strategic post? Is it going to offend people? Are you conveying the message in the right way? So I think for any agency, there needs to be an element of training and there might need to be an element of yes, that post’s okay.

Yeah, we’re good with that one. And maybe a sign off or an acceptable. way of doing things. Because I have seen posts in the past that have caused real harm and damage to relationships. They’ve positioned it in the right way. They’ve said the wrong sort of message. So yeah, I think there needs to be training.

There needs to be an element of control. You’re allowing consultants to speak to clients and candidates on a daily basis anyway, and they’re in a position where they can say the wrong thing. They can still convey the message in the wrong way. So you have to give them the autonomy to be able to do something about building their own personal brand, because.

It’s a personal brand. So you’ve got to allow some elements of character and personality and authenticity for that individual. But you’ve also got to protect the company brand as well. 

Ketan Gajjar: Of course. And that’s a sensitive issue with when it comes to, personal branding and, the team members utilizing that, that mode of communication, with posting things it’s delicate.

And, you don’t want to touch topics like you, you at least want to avoid, religion and politics. 

Steve Guest: Yeah, 

Ketan Gajjar: exactly. 

Steve Guest: And I think you can post. Five to 10 times a week about your market, your sector, about how you work, how you pre qualify the fact that you’re going out to meet a client or meeting a candidate you’re looking to take to market.

There’s so many things you can do and you can do it in a really positive light to again, showcase how you work and what you do. And if you do it in the right way, you’re only going to attract a wider audience anyway. 

Ketan Gajjar: Absolutely. Absolutely. So Steve, on a totally different question. What inspired you to write a personal brand story?

Steve Guest: I think the biggest inspiration for me was firstly, Top Biller had done so well. I think if Top Biller hadn’t sold, what is it at 14, 000 copies or 12, 000 copies across 60 odd countries, it’s globally the highest reviewed recruitment book on Amazon. If that hadn’t done so well, I don’t think I would have been as inspired to write a second.

The reason The second book was written and it was about personal branding was because I see such a huge gap in the market of people not doing it, not knowing how to start, what to do. I wanted to talk through the journey that I’ve been through because It’s not easy. And there’s been days where I’ve had doubts and second guessed what I’m doing.

As you work through the book, you’ll see the days where I’m really nervous about doing my first ever live webinar. I struggle with what do people think? [00:24:00] What will people say? Are people actually going to get any value from it all? Nobody’s perfect. We all have these thoughts. And I think it’s once you start getting over that hurdle, once you have the confidence to think, do you know what?

The end goal is far bigger than any one particular post and the overall dream or drive or end achievements are far bigger than the worries over what someone might say on a post. It also automatically starts to become a little bit easier and starts to become part of what your working day looks like.

And I would say that’s where I am. I am by very nature a perfectionist. I’ve grown up about with accuracy, with detail, with having all the specifics correct and everything in a row. And none of that’s ever there with social media or personal branding. And I’ve had to learn To get to maybe 70 75 percent of the way there and once I’m there the post goes out Because you start to spend too much time on any one particular thing.

It doesn’t get posted. It doesn’t go out Videos were a real struggle. I think it took me two years to do my first video. Wow. That’s a long time yeah, it’s a long time and I wanted to write the book to inspire people to read it and think you know what if someone like me The quiet, unassuming character that, that does struggle in large groups and standing up and talking to people.

If Steve can do it, then it’s worth a go. And actually I can do it too. That’s the whole idea. And that was the idea behind Top Biller as well. The idea was that I was told I’d never make it. I didn’t have the right character traits. I didn’t fit the profile of a recruiter. And actually, if you just follow a process and you do things with honesty, integrity and to the best of your ability, you 

Ketan Gajjar: can make a success of anything.


course. And then, interestingly, you used sort of criticism or feedback to actually, get there rather than, letting you down and, doing totally something different which people would have thought. So I think it’s a great way to do things that you really want to, and I know inspire yourself to start with.

Steve Guest: I think when you go on a personal brand journey, you will find people will say things that will comment. They will add things on posts that sometimes can be quite personal. They don’t necessarily agree with what you say, what you’re saying, and you open yourself up. for potential ridicule. That’s exactly the same with writing a book as well.

I’ve had a few one star reviews on top biller and they’re not nice. You take them personally. It’s like anything, isn’t it? When you’ve got an opinion or you say something or you tell a story, there will be somebody that disagrees and that’s fine. Of course it’s fine. It’s still engagement. People are still noticing what you’re doing.

And quite often it says more about the other individual than it does about you. Okay. More often you’re doing something that they wish to be doing, but they don’t have the confidence to do it. So they add the few comments that drag you down a peg or two. And I think I’ve learned that over time that if you’re Confident in the journey that you’re going on and you embrace the fact that some days will be good, some days will be bad, but the overall journey or the overall end goal is far bigger, as we say, than any one particular post.

You move on. Most posts only last 24, 48 hours anyway. And then, 

Ketan Gajjar: On, on a specific timeline, not more than a couple of hours, actually, unless, it’s trending. 

Steve Guest: Depending on the engagement, it’s there and gone within a whisper. So don’t lose much sleep over any one particular thing. Just remember the next day, you’re going to add something else.

The next post could be the one that gets you that amazing candidate or opens up that new opportunity with the client. You’ve been trying to get hold of for months or years. It’s absolutely. So keep showing 

Ketan Gajjar: up. Exactly. Show up every day. And that’s where, obviously you’re there 50 percent off your goal.

The rest is all, they’re putting in the work and then, taking things. Hiding behind the desk or, so totally, into it. So Steve in terms of one one, one specific feedback or what, one, one step that you’d advise for people who are reserved especially, to have a personal brand story for themselves, what would be your suggestion?

Now, how can they start? 

Steve Guest: It’s your journey. So there’s no, I am a reserved character. I am shy. I am not necessarily outwardly going. So for me, it’s about, I am a process procedure. I’m structured. I follow a set routine. So I think I started with showing that sort of element. I am thorough, I’m detailed.

I like to spend time understanding the process, the candidate, the client, ticking all the boxes to know I’ve got the information. So I think somebody that is just starting out, it’s about showing a little bit of who you are. It’s about showcasing who you are. When I first started, I used to have a morning where I just shared some of my favorite quotes.

It’s dead easy. Motivational quotes. You could showcase the opportunities you’re looking for.

I’ve lost your case and you’re still there.

Ketan Gajjar: Steve, are you there? Steve

are you there?

Steve, sorry. That’s okay. I think that I lost you. They’re on. So would you mind repeating the last bit because we lost you there. Apologies. I don’t know what happened. I don’t 

Steve Guest: worry. So for somebody who’s perhaps reserved, I’m a little bit nervous about what to post. I think it’s about keeping it simple.

And if you remember, it’s about showing up. It’s about somebody seeing your face on a daily basis. So it could be as simple as just. You could have, I don’t know, motivational quote Thursdays. Every nine o’clock, every morning at nine o’clock you share a motivational quote that you, you like or that inspires you.

It could be that every Tuesday you have your top five opportunities that you’re recruiting for. It might be that you share a moment of what’s happening in your life once a week. So think of questions you get asked. What do you do when you feel demotivated on a Monday morning? What’s your routine?

Do you get up and go for a run? Do you have an extra shot of coffee or caffeine in your coffee? Keep it simple. When I took on one of my consultants here and I, set about saying I want you to post twice a day on LinkedIn. And there weren’t avid kind of consistent posts social media posters.

So they used to ring and say, Steve, I don’t know what to post today. I’m really struggling. My first question back would be okay, so how’s your week going? Is it good? Is it bad? Have you had up days, down days? How are you feeling right now? Are you feeling motivated? What’s gone on this week that stood out for you?

What’s been significant or what have the turning points been? When you start thinking like that, you start to think about what questions you’ve been asked, what’s gone what’s not. What should you be doing? What shouldn’t you be doing? What has distracted you this week? These are all questions that people will want to get involved with because everybody goes through the same.

And I think 

Ketan Gajjar: Yep, absolutely. So I Yep.

Sorry. Yeah, no, 

Steve Guest: I was just going to say, I think it’s more about turning up. So the simple things about what’s going on in your market What questions do you get asked by clients or candidates? What makes you stand out from the rest? What makes you different? Why would anybody contact you as a recruiter ahead of anyone else?

What is the benefit of working with you? How do you work? How do you go over and above the expectation? Showcasing all of these things whilst advertising and not necessarily pitching makes you the go to person because people are more willing to come to you because you’ve shown what you do. A lot of this information I would think is in your face to face meetings or the Zoom calls when you’re trying to win a new client or pre qualify a candidate exclusively.

What do you say to those individuals to make sure that both parties are interested in working with you? They’re the posts.

Ketan Gajjar: And then it needs practice, of course, but I think, you shared some good tips out there, in terms of firstly is, show up consistency is everything. Yeah. Rest follows. 

Steve Guest: Yeah. Another good tip to think of when you post, you have about three seconds to grab someone’s attention when they’re scrolling through a timeline.

So the idea is you need a good catchy headline. So what’s going to grab attention. What’s going to stop someone from scrolling past. Yeah. You need a little bit of value in terms of what the post is about. Why are you adding it on there? What’s the value? Why would somebody be interested in the content?

And then you want a call to action at the bottom. So what do you want your network to do? How are they going to engage with the post? What do they need to write in the comments? Do you need them just to like the post or share it? Be specific. So what do you think? Do you agree? Add a yes in the comments. If this is.

Something that you agree with let me know your thoughts in the comments below. Would you have done this? Let me know in the comments below. These are all things that engage your network and you’re being specific in that you’re telling them, this is how I want you to react to my post. 

Ketan Gajjar: Yeah, sure, definitely.

So Steve, I think, there’s a lot of information for, people to listen to and actually work on. I’m sure, they’ll get a lot more value add from your book, a personal brand story which has got a lot of golden nuggets as I read for as well, I have got a copy here.

No, totally. Once again, Steve, thank you very much for being on the recruitment Curry show. Really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you. Thanks. Thanks very much, Steve.

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