Ketan Gajjar: Hi there. Namaste. This is Ketan Gajjar from the very APNU Ahmedabad. Welcome to the Recruitment Curry podcast. Gavin. Hi. How are you doing, Ketan? Very good. Thank you, Gavin. Very good. Good to see you again on the second podcast, actually. And as we were just chatting for a while, we’re going to be talking about the most talked topic actually across And then there’s lots of content out there, but, it’s still not enough because this is a lifelong topic.
And then the topic, as you say, is, how to overcome your fear of calling and then, then turning it into a powerful business tool. So let’s talk about it, Gavin.
Gavin Johnston: All right, I’m all ready.
Ketan Gajjar: Good stuff. Gavin, as we know cold calling or fear of calling is two ways, in recruitment is fear of calling the candidates, picking up the phone and similarly, picking up the phone to obviously reach [00:01:00] out to your prospects.
in terms of new business development. Why the fear? Why the fear of calling?
Gavin Johnston: I think that what I hear people say to me is that on the candidate side, recruiters are frightened that the candidate will say to them, you do not know what you’re talking about. And on the business side, I think it’s more than just a phone.
It’s actually. People in general are a bit worried about having to sell something to somebody. And then when you’re coming down to the crux of it all, it’s all about having to go into that negotiation phase. And when you’re on a phone, it’s life. There’s no, Oh, I’m hiding behind an indirect messenger or email or something.
You’ve got to be able to say your things. At the moment that you’re exchanging with the other party [00:02:00] and that again that freaks people out But actually in reality If you think about It’s just having a conversation. I think a lot of recruiters, they wind themselves up to a level that they create more fear than there really is.
Ketan Gajjar: It’s more psychology, isn’t it? You’re thinking too far ahead before making the call that, if I make a call, there’s X, Y, Z things that’s going to happen. For example, Oh, people are just not interested in talking to me You know having that perception or people just don’t want to hear about this job or the product or the service I’m selling and then you know, I think the crux is into overcoming that That hurdle and then you’re being clear in your mind before making the call
Gavin Johnston: Absolutely.
I think what people need is reassurance and let me give you, let me give you a question that I get all the time is, yeah, but what are the candidates going to say to me when they realize I’ve [00:03:00] just started last week as a recruiter? And what I say to them is in 17 years of recruitment, I have never had a candidate say to me, you don’t know what you’re on about.
And yet. I was placing Oracle experts. I only saw the product after six years of being a recruiter. So I was talking about something I’d never seen, but the importance isn’t about the product itself. It’s about the human being. It’s about that candidate and what is important for that candidate. And if you go into the call with a mindset is I am here to help.
I’m here to help either the candidate find something really good, or I’m here to help a client find the ideal candidate. If that’s at the back of your mind throughout the whole process, you’re actually like a facilitator of human to [00:04:00] human. And then it doesn’t matter all the rest because you’re there to help.
And hopefully with people putting that in their mind, there’ll be a bit more chilled about the whole approach.
Ketan Gajjar: Totally. Totally. Obviously, there’s fear that’s going to be there, especially for the new recruiters, who are starting in the industry and, the generation that has been used to actually.
Communicating via, text and WhatsApp and, LinkedIn and, so basically, all the other channels than the phone which of course works in, in, in lots of scenarios as well. So it’s a combination of, using various tools. to reach out to the candidates.
What makes a perfect call? What would be your advice to any new recruiters who, who want to call candidates? Of course there’s going to be fear, but what would you recommend them, to be prepared with?
Gavin Johnston: I think the first thing to say is, Start easy and think about what do you do when you pick up your phone and you call a friend.
What’s a [00:05:00] process that goes through your mind? Do you think about it? No. You’re just going to say, Oh, I’m going to call that friend to meet up, to go and organize a restaurant. So you pick up the phone, you know why you’re calling them. You say to your mate, yes, are you then available? Let’s go and do that restaurant.
We’ve been talking about it for weeks. Are you good? Yeah. Okay. I will book the restaurant. So then you’re under the second call and you’re calling the restaurant This is somebody you don’t know, but you’re calling the restaurant because you know why you’re calling them, right? You’re calling them to say I would like to book a table for four people that time Ah, is there any space available and they’ll go yes, and then that’s it.
There’s two calls. We’re so easy It’s the same thing when you’re calling a candidate prepare your call Don’t just call, Oh, I’m just going to call because I’ve got the number and I know they might be a candidate. No. You call them after you have set yourself some objectives. Every single call that a recruiter makes has got to have objectives [00:06:00] because if not, there’s no point making the call.
And they will vary. You might be calling a candidate to get an updated CV. You might be calling a candidate to present your recruitment agency. You might be calling a candidate just to get to know them and find out what’s interesting for them. What kind of jobs they want, when they’re available, if they’re available, if they’re motivated, if they’re happy where they are.
These are all different things that you can set as an objective. And it’s the same thing with clients because each client will have a different set of reasons why you will call them. It might be business development, it might be a catch up call, it might be to organize an interview, it might be all sorts of reasons.
And if you are each time have in the back of your mind, I know exactly what I’m calling. I know that to get those results I’ve got to ask these questions. It’s the same thing as saying, so do you have a table available on that date? Yes. For four people? Yes. At [00:07:00] that time? Yes. Your call is a success. And so the perfect call I would say is when you manage to get all your objectives fulfilled.
And I want to add one thing to that because you might say I’m calling the candidate to get an updated CV. And they agree that they will send you an updated CV by tomorrow morning. You’ve achieved your objective, right? That’s a good call. But for me a perfect call is when not only do you get that. But you might get a referral, somebody else, you might get them to do some promotion for you of saying, I will talk to this guy I know about you and about your job.
That is a perfect call when you can get more out of it than your very important basic objectives. So
Ketan Gajjar: outlining your whys, [00:08:00] absolutely. And it totally makes sense. The gist of it is that, if you want to make a perfect call, One is, outline your why’s, why are you calling the candidate?
Be prepared with all the expected responses and that’s when you get on the call Which will you know, increase your confidence, tenfolds rather than just going unprepared
Gavin Johnston: Yeah, and what I would also say to people who are a bit worried about calling is Make that call and then spend 10 20 seconds afterwards just analyzing it and saying, Did I get what I wanted?
Were my original questions the right ones to ask? Did I miss any questions? Could I have been more precise? Could I have shown more empathy? Should I have put a bit more humor in there? Analyze that, [00:09:00] think about how the correspondent on the other end of the phone reacted, and then learn from it and apply it to your next course.
Ketan Gajjar: Yep. Self awareness is one more, important tool. To improve yourself. Improvement
Gavin Johnston: is one of the most important things out there. You know it as well as me. It’s all about the details, isn’t it?
Ketan Gajjar: Yeah, it is. It totally is. And then one interesting point you mentioned on your posts, because you’ve written a series of posts on this specific topic, on LinkedIn.
Oh no. Facebook is time management, so blocking off, a couple of hours, morning, evening, afternoon. So how, what would you recommend on that point Gavin for again, specifically about fear of calling and, overcoming it.
Gavin Johnston: Yeah, I think important thing to understand is that you need to get onto a roll.
If you are just saying, Oh, I’m going to go and pick up the phone now. And then you go back and you want some emails, it’s again, going to be difficult once you say after 20 minutes, Oh I’m going to get and make a call again. So what I [00:10:00] typically do is I will block off periods. I will say, okay, I’ve got this requirement.
I’m going to spend the next two hours. All I’m going to be doing is hitting the phones. I’m not going to answer any emails. I’m not going to look at them. I’m not going to have any texts, any social media, anything disturbed me. I’m not allowed to do it. Let’s say it’s 10 o’clock. I’m not allowed to touch anything except for my phone, my ATS, where I can get the numbers of the people.
And I’ll have LinkedIn, if it’s candidates who are on LinkedIn, open so I can just type their name and see their name in front of me. And then that’s it. I’m on the phone and only on the phone until 12 o’clock and nothing is allowed to disturb me. So stay in like in the zone, get into it. You’ll be much more productive.
You’ll feel more at ease. You’ll be actually much happier because your focus is going to be there and you’re going to deliver better quality.
Ketan Gajjar: Absolutely. So blocking that time is important and, [00:11:00] just as focusing on one specific task for whatever stipulated time. To get the most out of it.
Gavin Johnston: And I want to add something else to that actually Kirkan because if you’re going to have a session of let’s say two hours, I wouldn’t do more than two hours do two hours and have a break and then do two hours again, but if you’re going to have a session of two hours on the phone, to be productive, you want to do here beforehand your prep work.
So for example let me give you a typical example of what happens is that you receive a requirement. You need to call. Do not start calling the first two, three people that you’ve got in your mind. You first make your list of people you’re gonna call. Either you need to do a search or you know your list already.
You make that list. You make it very easy for yourself to have access to the telephone number easily. You make sure that they’re all there. You don’t want to go through a list where 50 percent don’t have a phone number. You’re going, Oh now what? [00:12:00] You lose your momentum. So if you need to spend, I don’t know, half an hour or an hour preparing your call list, do it because you’ll be so much more productive in those two hours afterwards.
And if possible, I know it’s not always possible, but if possible, do your preparation in dead hours. For example, after 6pm, the night before you do your calling in the morning, because if it’s a period when you can’t call in any case. You are not wasting calling time. Calling time is a very important period of the day, huh?
I think people need to understand that by being on the phone during those, I would say six hours a day that you can be on the phone. You are really gonna be maximizing your business. Your return on investment is gonna be very high. If you can do it, you. For [00:13:00] example, when I was working on a requirement.
And I was talking to people that I knew before, because that’s one of my approaches. I know candidates before I would give myself five minutes per call. So five minutes per call, you waste maybe 20 seconds typing the number, the name in your ATS to get the number up. And then at the end, you waste 30 seconds saying goodbye and all that.
So you’ve got, let’s say four minutes in the middle, where you’re actually talking about the requirement. Now, I know all my candidates, so I can do that. But you’ve got to think about productivity. And then when you don’t have a requirement, then you can say, oh I’m now going to spend 20 minutes or 30 minutes talking to a candidate that I don’t know very well, and really getting to know them.
And then you’re just having a nice conversation. There’s nothing to be frightened about for that. But again, these are hours of the day. So any prep work that you’ve got to do to make that call, [00:14:00] do it after hours or very early in the morning before anybody wants to pick up in any case.
Ketan Gajjar: Absolutely. So one thing I would definitely take away from this feedback of yours is Capitalize on the momentum.
So one is build the momentum two is don’t break it by doing things which are not important. During those hours. And one thing that, that, I’ve been doing, and my team does is, 10 before 10 it’s an old school recruitment, methodology, but so the task is, You source 10 new leads, as soon as you come in the morning, 10 LinkedIn messages, 10 connections, 10 emails, and 10 cool calls.
This is 10 activity of each, whatever activity you define before 10 o’clock. And the idea is to build the momentum and, make you feel, psychologically like you’re winning.
Gavin Johnston: Oh, it’s very powerful because the great thing is that if you are straight in the morning, you get your cup of coffee, tea in my case, and you get really in there, but by 10 o’clock you go, [00:15:00] wow, it’s amazing.
Look what I’ve done already. And you’re on a roll.
Ketan Gajjar: Exactly. And that’s what builds the momentum. When it comes to calling, be it calling candidates, being prepared with the list of candidates you want to call, much in advance. Is much more powerful than you know setting to search on a new rec and then you know calling, you know in between of every new search
Gavin Johnston: Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. And I think what’s also important is that A recruiter needs to have a structure need to know what they’re going to do And they should have a plan a routine throughout the week. Obviously, you’re going to have periods with requirements that are higher priority, and you’re going to have periods throughout the day, or sorry, the week where you’re going to have just catch up calls, getting to know calls, and things like admin.
But you should know on the Monday morning as you come into the office, you should know my week is structured this way. I know what I’m going to be doing when I know what has to be achieved [00:16:00] so that each one of these steps of the day can be productive. And so I would say calendar management is a very important thing.
Ketan Gajjar: And then the fear directly is linked to the structure as well, because if you don’t have a structure, you don’t know, what you’re going to do at specific point in time. And then, you’ll be doing all sorts of things and ending up actually not achieving anything leave it on the phone which is probably the last priority due to the fear.
And then this is one common, opinion and advice that has come, across all the podcasts that I’ve had with, everybody as a guest that have a structure in place, have that process in place. Be prepared with the questions, the way you mentioned, your why is more important.
Why are you calling the candidates apart from, these things which are, absolute basics and, fundamental to making the most of the calling activity, what other, recommendations you’d have to make it into a constructive business tool, for the recruiters to be far more productive.
Gavin Johnston: There’s many things actually, there’s many things. First of all, I would [00:17:00] say. If you look at the information that you can gather during a call, it can be a lot of data. It can be, for example, on a candidate side, it can be where they’ve applied. It can be what kind of jobs they’re looking for. It can be what locations they want to work in.
It can be how many days a week they want to be in the office and how many days a week they want to work remote. It can be All sorts of information. It is impossible to remember it all. So it is absolutely crucial to be very effective in updating the ATS with as much data as possible. And don’t do it at the end of the day.
What I actually, in the beginning, I used to have my phone like this, the old phones, and you go like that and you’re typing. And then I said to my boss, I said, look, I need a headset. And so I got a headset, but it had a cable on it, but I like to walk around when I call.
And so it didn’t work because the cable wasn’t long enough. So I said to my boss no, [00:18:00] I need a wireless headset so that with a microphone, so I can just walk around the office. And because I like to update my ATS as I go along and not An hour later, you’d see me walk around and suddenly the candidate would say something important.
And I’d run back to my desk and quickly type into the ATS the information that the candidate has given me. And then I’d run back out to where I was. It’s, but it’s very important. This is all quite funny, but the reality is it’s very important. Capture that data. Because at the moment itself, you think I know it.
But in reality, two days later, you’ve forgotten it because it’s such a data overload in your brain. So that’s the first thing I would say. The second thing I would say is stand up when you call. There was actually supposed to be my,
Ketan Gajjar: sorry, there was actually supposed to be my next, question as well, because I did notice that, on, on one of your posts, [00:19:00] that Stand up, and then, have a smile, talk around.
So let’s talk about, these basics very important.
Gavin Johnston: Yeah. No, because for me, it is absolutely crucial to do this. You, if you stand up, you’re opening up your lungs you’re more confident in your posture. You’re not like bent over like this and you can hear that over the phone.
It’s the same thing with a smile. If you’re going to go, Hi, my name’s Gavin. I’m a recruiter and I see that you’ve got the right profile for a job I’ve got, or Hi, I’m Gavin. How’s it going? It’s a wonderful day. There’s a smile there, and that smile is going to be heard over the phone. I think also one of the things that people need to do is A lot of people who are nervous, they talk too fast and they’re going to be out of breath.
You hear something and you’re like easy, calm down, so pacing your speed of talking is an important [00:20:00] one. Another one is talk with different levels of volume, go up and down and that will make it actually more interesting to listen to you. People will be more, because sometimes on the phone when you can’t see, I’m looking at you now and it’s quite good because, there’s a focus point.
But when you’re on the phone and you’re looking around, you might be looking at like me, for example, I might see a squirrel in the garden, or I might see the neighbor turn up in his car, but that gets the focus away. But if you’re going up and down in your volume of your talking. That is also going to be a focus point.
The other thing is, and this is a very powerful thing. This is not basic anymore. This is a more advanced, this is a trick that I would say that you your audience should try out is. The power of silence. The power of silence is absolutely unbelievable. Where if you’re, for example, especially negotiating, and it could be with a candidate about something, or could be with a client in business [00:21:00] development, is you make a statement, or you ask a question, and then you don’t say anything.
And the other party If it’s a question, for example, they will answer, but you still don’t say anything. And people do not like silence. And so what they will do is they will, nine chance out of ten, start talking again. And they’ll say maybe something that they didn’t quite mean to reveal, but you’ve got the information.
And often it’s quite important information. Or they’ll go are you still there? And then you can say, of course, I’m just really listening to you. And that’s again a winner, Oh, he’s really listening to me. Or she’s really listening to me. Fantastic.
Ketan Gajjar: Totally. Totally. So being a good listener and it’s obviously a non negotiable if you want to be an ace recruiter, isn’t it?
That is
Gavin Johnston: why I always say, if you have done your preparation [00:22:00] of your call, you’ve got your wise, your objectives, You are gonna be able to listen better if you are on that call and you think, oh yeah, and I should ask that also, and I should ask that also. You are thinking about your stuff. You are not listening and you have to listen because it’s in the details of what the person’s saying to you, that you’re gonna be able to pick up a lot of information.
For example, somebody you might say, I’ve got a great job doing this. How does that sound? Often you can hear in the intonation if they’re really motivated or not. And you might listen to the first 10, 15, 20 seconds. But the full positioning of that candidate comes from everything they say. And if you’re really listening, You will hear, if there’s a change in tonality, if there’s actually a hint that they might not be as interested as they sound that they are, as they say that they [00:23:00] are.
So yeah, listening is, my logo of my company is an ear. It’s no coincidence there.
Ketan Gajjar: Wow. That’s pretty thoughtful actually.
Gavin Johnston: Yeah. And then. I think that people still believe that they need to talk too much. I once many years, this is before I became a recruiter. I saw this training.
And the the trainer was saying you should be talking one third, listening two thirds. Now if any of your audience actually analyzes that, only talking one third is a very short period of time compared to a total course. And that’s where you come into this whole thing about using open questions.
Open questions are questions that will force the listener to answer by more than just yes or no. So it’s [00:24:00] things like how, who, why, where. If I say, where are you? You can’t say yes, because then you know there’s a problem somewhere in the conversation. Unless
Ketan Gajjar: the place is named as yes.
Gavin Johnston: Hopefully there’s not too many of those.
But if I say to you, why do you want a new job? That’s it. They are obliged to answer and give you something. And if you continue using these open questions, you can actually spend much less time asking questions and much more time having them talk and you listen.
Ketan Gajjar: Sure. And then there’s one more question, but I think, this question deserves a separate podcast altogether.
It’s about. Cold calling the hiring managers, from a recruiter’s perspective.
Gavin Johnston: Yeah. Yeah. Or maybe even two podcasts.
[00:25:00] Ah, how can I answer this shortly? You know what I think? Okay. Let’s face it. Let’s face it. What most recruiters are going to do is they’re going to go in. They’re going to, they’re going to get a list of prospective clients that they’re going to call. And they’re going to start calling around and saying, Hi, my name is Gavin.
I’m a recruiter. How can I help you? Hopefully it’s a bit more elaborate than that, but that’s basically it in a nutshell. Those kinds of calls have got a very high rejection rate. And the reason is that one, you’re not bringing anything to that person.
Ketan Gajjar: Sure.
Gavin Johnston: Two, you’re probably the fifth, sixth, seventh, or twenty fifth recruiter calling that person that day.
Three, and this is the thing that most people do not realize, is that a hiring manager might spend two, three, four, maximum five percent of their time on recruitment. They’ve got [00:26:00] way loads of other things they’ve got to concentrate on. They’ve got so many responsibilities that they’ve got to take care of.
Recruitment is a tiny little part of their obligations. And so if you’re calling them, not bringing anything to them, why would they want to talk to you? It’s like somebody knocking on your front door saying, Hey, look, I’ve got a great carpet for you. And you’re thinking there’s a, there’s an energy crisis going on.
Inflation’s at 10%. What am I going to do with the carpet? I would have to pay the bills, and so I think the whole idea of cold calling prospects. It’s very unproductive. You get results, but in an unproductive way. So what I do, but, and this will have to be another podcast, because it’s such a big subject, but I will only ever warm call a prospect.
I will cold call people with whom I have an [00:27:00] existing relationship. So if I’ve got a client with whom I’ve already got contact, I definitely don’t mind picking up the phone just like that and calling, Hi, we haven’t spoken in two months. I’m just calling to catch up and find out what’s happening it’s a time of year when you’re doing your budget or I hear that you’ve recruited this person Or I hear I saw that you posted an ad up for that job or I saw on linkedin that you guys Have bought this new company.
What’s the impact on you? Are you gonna have to have people to help you transition? Etc. Etc that I will do all the time but for a prospect I would say only ever do a warm call or a hot call. So a warm call is where you come in trying to solve a problem that the hiring manager has. A hot call is when you’ve got an introduction.
To the hiring manager from a person that they really trust. So that the hiring manager [00:28:00] already knows your name.
Ketan Gajjar: Sure. Sure. No, totally get it. And we might have to do a, another podcast on this topic totally different. From calling the candidates perspective and this might be the closing comment of this podcast is how should recruiters respond to people who hang up on them or maybe, behave or conduct in a very, unsocial way, on the calls.
Should they take it personally? Because, I’ve seen this lot of newbies that, okay, fine, I’m going to call candidates and people are going to hang up on me. Should they be disheartened or, how should they move on to the next call? What would be your advice?
Gavin Johnston: Never take it personally, because when you’re calling a candidate, they don’t know who you are.
They have no idea who you are. You can probably call back two hours later and they might not even realize it’s the same person calling. The trick, when you get these marketing calls from like utility companies, do you [00:29:00] even pick up the name of the person? Often you don’t. Often you’re just like, what?
And you hear, you register the name of the company, you go, Oh no, I’m not interested. Bang. It’s the same thing for recruitment. Never ever take it personally. Just move on to the next thing. You’ve got your call list. Yeah. That’s why you prepared it all. You’ve got your call list. Okay. And put a little note, like a little mark saying that was the wrong approach.
Now, it might be that Canada is just a pain in the backside and you will never get through. Or it might be that candidate was. On the toilet, you never know, or it might be that they’ve had a rough day, they had an argument with their boss, with their better half, whatever, it might be that they’re on holiday, you don’t know, you just don’t know.
So stop looking at yourself, you’re there as a recruiter to offer a service. Your service is to [00:30:00] help candidates find work and ideally something that really is the best for them. And on the other hand, you’re there to help hiring managers make sure they get the best people on board. Those are your two objectives.
It’s not about who do people love me. No, you can give yourself a personal objective. Give yourself a personal objective of achieving happy candidates and loads of placements. Give yourself, if you’re in a, in an agency recruitment situation, give yourself the objective of a certain amount of placements and therefore earning good money and buying yourself a nice car, for example.
But never take things personally because they’re not personal until you really build a relationship. And then the interesting thing is, then it’s great that it’s personal because there’s a bond. Yeah. Next time you pick up the phone to talk to either client or candidate. It’s [00:31:00] personal. You will have probably no ghosting anymore.
You will have much more meaningful conversations. It will, the first call will be, Hi, my name’s Gavin, I’m a recruiter. I saw this. And the candidate will go, Yeah, alright. Two years later it’s, John, it’s Gavin. How are the kids doing? How was your holiday? It’s going to be things like that, you’re bringing it to a completely different level.
So never take it personally and never give
Ketan Gajjar: up. And so exactly. And, funnily I, this is amazing, actually. Because you cannot build relationships over email or text messages. You have to pick up the phone actually to, to, and then when they hear your voice and then, it’s always the voice.
That’s the only element that they can feel when you’re talking to them because, it is a phone call. If you’re not confident, if you don’t believe in yourself. the candidate or the prospect, they aren’t going to build, any belief in you. And then, like you [00:32:00] mentioned, that relationship building is going to take time.
Your first call and your call in three months time is going to be very different. It’s a different dialogue, different pitch different camaraderie as well. So it, I think it’s, This has to be the best the best actually comment, that you made that in the difference, the first call and, when you call them after you place them or after you build that rapport and then making it personal.
Gavin Johnston: Yeah, absolutely. This is a very interesting something I want to add because I was I do less recruitment now and I do much more training. And the way for me to build my audience is to be present online. So I’m on Facebook, as you stated, and I’m on LinkedIn and. What I’m doing is actually contrary to what I teach.
I teach recruiters to pick up the phone. What I do is I actually use texts by posts to promote myself. But actually, the equivalent of picking up the phone in my world is to [00:33:00] do what you’re doing. Podcasts.
Ketan Gajjar: Yep.
Gavin Johnston: Podcasts, webinars, live shows, and I haven’t done that yet, and that’s my next step. Because once again, what happens is that if you see people, if you hear people, that rapport is so much more tight knit.
Then if you’re just reading a text of that person, and so voice and video is unbeatable when it comes to being productive compared to just purely text.
Ketan Gajjar: Absolutely. Can’t agree more. And which is why, on a separate note, I started Doing the podcasts. Although there was fear and then again going back to, the same situation as calling that, Oh, am I going to do it?
How is it going to, get the response? Are people going to listen to it? At the end of the day, you have to put yourself out there even to know, if it’s working or, is it just a waste of time?
Gavin Johnston: You’re doing great. I’ve been listening to them and I see how you are and you’re doing absolutely [00:34:00] fantastic.
So no worries for
Ketan Gajjar: you. That’s encouraging Gavin. So Gavin, thank you very much for sharing your valuable insights, especially on the calling part and then obviously how to use it as a, productive business tool hopefully we’ll catch up again on, on more podcasts especially on the topic of engaging with the hiring manager and the next time we talk.
Gavin Johnston: My pleasure, Kate, and it’s always great to be able to exchange with you. And yeah, I’m quite happy to come back and talk about breaking down that hiring manager barrier.
Ketan Gajjar: Perfect. Perfect. Thanks. Thanks, Gavin. Once again. Thanks for being on The Recruitment Curry. Thanks. Cheers.
